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DipTrace [message #170167] Thu, 30 March 2017 13:06 Go to next message
zoltan
Messages: 24
Registered: February 2006
Junior Member
Does anyone have some experience with DipTrace?

Now that Eagle became a subscription service, from our point of
view it's dead. While the last version we have is still running fine,
obviously we'd like to explore other moderately priced commercial
quality options for the future. We don't do Windows and don't want to
run Wine either which severely limits our choices.

One possibility would be DipTrace, which on the surface seems to do
everything that Eagle can do and it's pricetag is at the same league.

So I just wonder whether someone had some experience with it and could
compare it to Eagle, pros/cons, better at this, worse at that style?

Thanks,

Zoltan

--
Zoltán Kócsi
Bendor Research Pty. Ltd.
Re: DipTrace [message #170168 is a reply to message #170167] Thu, 30 March 2017 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Zoltán Kócsi schrieb:

> [...] We don't do Windows and don't want to
> run Wine either which severely limits our choices.
>
> One possibility would be DipTrace, [...]

....which you excluded by "not Windows or Wine":
<http://diptrace.com/support/faq/#c207>

Tilmann
Re: DipTrace [message #170169 is a reply to message #170168] Thu, 30 March 2017 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoltan
Messages: 24
Registered: February 2006
Junior Member
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:14:01 +0200
Tilmann Reh <usenet2007nospam@autometer.de> wrote:

>> One possibility would be DipTrace, [...]
>
> ...which you excluded by "not Windows or Wine":
> <http://diptrace.com/support/faq/#c207>

I did not say "neither Mac", did I ...

Zoltan
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Zoltán Kócsi
Bendor Research Pty. Ltd.
Re: DipTrace [message #170176 is a reply to message #170167] Fri, 31 March 2017 04:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
COMPACT
Messages: 54
Registered: May 2013
Member
How about Mentor Graphics Xpedition or E-Z Circuit by Bishop Graphics?

[Manual PCB Layout]

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Re: DipTrace [message #170177 is a reply to message #170176] Fri, 31 March 2017 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael Kellett
Messages: 75
Registered: February 2012
Member
Tape and film, those were the days - we used to buy the supplies from Ciruitape in the UK. I can still remember an engineer called Gerard idly fidgeting with the scalpel we used to cut the tape and dropping it, point down, onto his leg X-(

We moved over to using blue and red tape for double sided boards.

MK

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Re: DipTrace [message #170179 is a reply to message #170176] Fri, 31 March 2017 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoltan
Messages: 24
Registered: February 2006
Junior Member
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:49:42 GMT
COMPACT <noreply-67118@element14.com> wrote:

> How about Mentor Graphics Xpedition

Yeah, funny.

> or E-Z Circuit by Bishop Graphics?

I was more of a Letraset man.
Then OrCAD on DOS with a whopping 72dpi Epson dot-matrix printer.

Of those I really miss the DOS OrCAD's schematics editor, the most
useful(!) feature rich schematics entry I've ever worked width. Then
they moved to Windows and replaced the useful features with useless
eye-candy.

Alas, reminiscing about the good old days of spray-on photoresin and
UV lamp and acetone or the iron-trichloride bath at the corner of the
workbench and whatnot can't really help me finding an Eagle replacement
for Linux or Mac, can it :-(

But thanks anyway.

Zoltan
--
Zoltán Kócsi
Bendor Research Pty. Ltd.
Re: DipTrace [message #170187 is a reply to message #170167] Sun, 02 April 2017 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:06:30 +1100, Zoltán Kócsi
<zoltan@bendor.com.au> wrote:


> One possibility would be DipTrace, which on the surface seems to do
> everything that Eagle can do and it's pricetag is at the same league.
>
> So I just wonder whether someone had some experience with it and could
> compare it to Eagle, pros/cons, better at this, worse at that style?

I don't know that program at all so I can't comment specifically. But
here is the problem when you "go off the reservation". Before it was
assassinated, Eagle was the defacto standard for amateurs and small to
medium size commercial operations. The board houses we're likely to
use know Eagle and know the common mistakes people make. If you use
any other package, you're on your own. You send them the Gerbers and
if they do any checking at all, it's for very obvious things such as
crossed traces.

However.

Things have changed. Since Eagle was murdered, board houses like
Seeed.com and the major open source hardware sites have included
KiCAD, the new defacto standard. Among the advantages:

* It's free and Open Source software so it can never be taken away
from you.

* Its development has been commercially financed by CERN for the past
couple of years and it shows. It is now good enough to do commercial
work with. I've just finished the main board for my company's latest
induction heater. A complex board with about 400 components including
a 100 pin flat pack with 0.5mm pin spacing.

* of the board houses I've checked with, most all now know KiCAD.

* Once you get used to KiCAD's idiosyncrasies (no worse than Eagle's),
you'll never have to re-learn again. And you'll never have to pay for
PCB CAD software again.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: DipTrace [message #170190 is a reply to message #170167] Mon, 03 April 2017 05:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rickb
Messages: 15
Registered: March 2016
Location: Junction City, OR USA
Junior Member
KiCad receives "some" funding from CERN, but most of the development is still done by volunteers when they can afford some free time from their life and real jobs. KiCad needs your donations to keep the pace of development up to users expectations. It is unlikely to ever keep up with Eagle until users start making meaningful contributions to KiCad. The cost of development by professional software engineers is about $60/hour. You can contribute here...
https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6

If you use it, contribute, especially if you make a living with it.

Rick

Re: DipTrace [message #170192 is a reply to message #170179] Mon, 03 April 2017 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans Lederer
Messages: 298
Registered: June 2008
Senior Member
Am 31.03.2017 um 16:18 schrieb Zoltán Kócsi:
> Of those I really miss the DOS OrCAD's schematics editor, the most
> useful(!) feature rich schematics entry I've ever worked width.

YES! Me too…
Re: DipTrace [message #170194 is a reply to message #170179] Mon, 03 April 2017 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1348
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 31.03.2017 16:18, Zoltán Kócsi wrote:
> Of those I really miss the DOS OrCAD's schematics editor, the most
> useful(!) feature rich schematics entry I've ever worked width. Then
> they moved to Windows and replaced the useful features with useless
> eye-candy.

I'd like to hear what you really lost, or if this is just ludditity ;)
Re: DipTrace [message #170195 is a reply to message #170167] Mon, 03 April 2017 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brijesh Sondarva
Messages: 1
Registered: April 2017
Junior Member
Yes I have used both of this software EAGLE CAD as well as DipTrace for design so many circuits and lots of practice with both of this software both have some good features and some its limitation too, like Diptrace have facility to auto place that feature not more expensive in EagleCad but EagleCad have great library function almost parts and components available in eagle cad and some parts have not in diptrace but in diptrace have good and advanced tool to show your PCB in 3D view after designing that's may be plus point of diptrace, but Eagle Cad is absolutely Good. :)

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Re: DipTrace [message #170197 is a reply to message #170194] Mon, 03 April 2017 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans Lederer
Messages: 298
Registered: June 2008
Senior Member
Am 03.04.2017 um 12:21 schrieb Morten Leikvoll:
> On 31.03.2017 16:18, Zoltán Kócsi wrote:
>> Of those I really miss the DOS OrCAD's schematics editor, the most
>> useful(!) feature rich schematics entry I've ever worked width. Then
>> they moved to Windows and replaced the useful features with useless
>> eye-candy.
>
> I'd like to hear what you really lost, or if this is just ludditity ;)
>

For instance two things I vividly remember and miss:

DOS OrCad SDT had clever one-letter commands so you could keep one hand
on the mouse to point and the other hand at the keyboard to tap these
commands (no <Enter> necessary) — very fast!
I don't remember the commands exactly, its 25 years ago, but for
instance something like this —
<point> (P)lace (W)ire (B)egin <point> (P)lace <point> (P)lace <point>
(E)nd
gave a net with two bends.

It had a clever (R)epeat command with auto-offset and auto-increment for
many commands. Tapping R three times would for instance give three
copies of the above net, properly offset and named.
Or you could place one resistor and then hold down R and let the
keyboard autorepeat (R)epeat that resistor fifteen times. Great for
buses etc.

Of course design tools have added a lot of features since and I wouldn't
want to go back to those DOS tools now. I also wouldn't want to use
these red and blue adhesive tapes ever again (some rerouting on a
finished board — AARGH!)

But I could never before or after draw schematics so fast and easy as
with OrCad SDT.

I still use something like that on Eagle, with five-layered custom
function keys and text commands — much better than menus or those
hieroglyphic buttons (it is just an idiotic idea to use the mouse
alternating for precise pointing and selecting buttons or menus
elsewhere). But it needs many more keystrokes than OrCad did.
Re: DipTrace [message #170201 is a reply to message #170197] Mon, 03 April 2017 19:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1761
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 3/04/2017 11:53 p.m., Hans Lederer wrote:

> ...DOS OrCad SDT had clever one-letter commands so you could keep one hand
> on the mouse to point and the other hand at the keyboard to tap these
> commands (no <Enter> necessary) — very fast!
> I don't remember the commands exactly, its 25 years ago, but for
> instance something like this —
> <point> (P)lace (W)ire (B)egin <point> (P)lace <point> (P)lace <point>
> (E)nd
> gave a net with two bends.
>
> It had a clever (R)epeat command with auto-offset and auto-increment for
> many commands. Tapping R three times would for instance give three
> copies of the above net, properly offset and named.
> Or you could place one resistor and then hold down R and let the
> keyboard autorepeat (R)epeat that resistor fifteen times. Great for
> buses etc.
>
> Of course design tools have added a lot of features since and I wouldn't
> want to go back to those DOS tools now............
>
> But I could never before or after draw schematics so fast and easy as
> with OrCad SDT.............
>
> I still use something like that on Eagle, ............ But it needs many more keystrokes than OrCad did.
>

Here is a link to the OrCAD SDT III Manual
https://archive.org/details/OrCAD3Manual

Enjoy
Warren

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Re: DipTrace [message #170207 is a reply to message #170190] Tue, 04 April 2017 01:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 22:29:55 -0700, Rick Brown <ricksbmw@gmail.com>
wrote:

> KiCad receives "some" funding from CERN, but most of the development is
> still done by volunteers when they can afford some free time from their
> life and real jobs. KiCad needs your donations to keep the pace of
> development up to users expectations. It is unlikely to ever keep up with
> Eagle until users start making meaningful contributions to KiCad. The cost
> of development by professional software engineers is about $60/hour. You
> can contribute here...
> https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6
>
> If you use it, contribute, especially if you make a living with it.

Thanks for the reminder. I made an anonymous 480 CHF (essentially
$480) to the project when Eagle was murdered. I just made a 120 CHF
contribution and put an entry in my phone calendar to remind me to do
that monthly.

I challenge anyone who is pissed at what has been done to Eagle to do
the same.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: DipTrace [message #170209 is a reply to message #170201] Tue, 04 April 2017 10:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans Lederer
Messages: 298
Registered: June 2008
Senior Member
Am 03.04.2017 um 21:33 schrieb warrenbrayshaw:
> On 3/04/2017 11:53 p.m., Hans Lederer wrote:
> […]
>> But I could never before or after draw schematics so fast and easy as
>> with OrCad SDT.............
>>
>> I still use something like that on Eagle, ............ But it needs many more keystrokes than OrCad did.
>>
>
> Here is a link to the OrCAD SDT III Manual
> https://archive.org/details/OrCAD3Manual
>

Ah, nice! I'm sure I still have the printed book (dark green cover?)
somewhere in my attic, together with it's d**d parport dongle. Probably
next to the “IBM PC 8088 Macro Assembler” binder…
Re: DipTrace [message #170211 is a reply to message #170194] Tue, 04 April 2017 13:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoltan
Messages: 24
Registered: February 2006
Junior Member
On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 12:21:33 +0200
Morten Leikvoll <mleikvol@yahoo.nospam> wrote:

> On 31.03.2017 16:18, Zoltán Kócsi wrote:
>> Of those I really miss the DOS OrCAD's schematics editor, the most
>> useful(!) feature rich schematics entry I've ever worked width. Then
>> they moved to Windows and replaced the useful features with useless
>> eye-candy.
>
> I'd like to hear what you really lost, or if this is just ludditity ;)

Among other things, the hierarchical schematics (I know that finally
Eagle also got it, but OrCAD had it 30 years ago!).

Then the repeat function, when you did something and then OrCAD
remembered the sequence and repeated it. Very handy when you need to do
repetitive tasks, like putting a bunch of decoupling caps down. Draw
one cap, set its value, adjust the position of its designator and value
labels, draw the ground, the arrow to Vcc, move the pointer to the left
by say 4 grid points, press end. Then every press of the repeat key
will put down the next cap, valued, numbered, connected.

Also, automatic label increment - when you needed to connect 32 data or
address pins to the buses it took you to connect 1 pin then press the
repeat key 31 times, done.

The whole thing could be extended with OrCad asking you for input, I
think they called that a 'macro'.

Naming buses and OrCAD checking that members connecting to a bus indeed
belong there was also quite cool.

The fact that you didn't need to create a different component for every
different power rail you have, because OrCAD had the concept of a
power rail symbol. Symbols with matching *values* were connected.

An other thing I really miss is the fact that you could move around on
the grid by cursor keys, no need to constantly use the mouse. That was
very, very covenient and made drawing things much faster than constantly
switching between the keys and the rodent.

There were other neat features too, but these are the ones that come to
mind without much thinking, possibly because the lack of these
frustrates me the most.

Whether missing those features makes me a luddite, well, your call.
--
Zoltán Kócsi
Bendor Research Pty. Ltd.
Re: DipTrace [message #170220 is a reply to message #170211] Thu, 06 April 2017 07:45 Go to previous message
COMPACT
Messages: 54
Registered: May 2013
Member
I find it interesting that you work width.
Do you also work with height and length?

You can go use vintage apps like Protel AutoTrax or even P-CAD.

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