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Subscription model issues [message #168715] Fri, 20 January 2017 09:01 Go to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
I've read a lot of complains about this new model, some real concerns,
and some lesser real to the plain grumpy ones. I suggest we list up the
real concerns here, and I will start with mine.

First, an plausible explanation why changes are frustrating for the
users. All the users already writing their frustration have all spent
and will continue spending their time on this issue. If there was no
change in licensing, this time would have been used for something
productive. This causes some frustration. The users who don't care can
save this time, but the ones having real concerns should be listened to
when they spend their time on it.

My own biggest concern has already started; Unneccesary mental
involvement (or lost time if you like). This is something I have started
to protect myself against, seeing flood waves of "social" media wanting
my attention. Supscription model requires my (and matbe my teams) time
and us to think about alot of whatif scenarios. This is uncomfortable
because there is no answer. What I do know is that if something goes
wrong, my data may (in extreme worst case) end up close to worthless.
The reason why I added "close to" is that the data is xml format, and
does make some sense, at lest for me with a lot of understanding about
eagle structures. This comforts me.

Some of my whatifs are:
-Will autodesk be able to serve all the eagle online versions after
aquistions/new management and/or company policies? I think we will be
forced to use latest version, but it doesnt take much to imagine retro
issues in 10-20 years. All online tools will have retro issues by nature.

-How much money will my project cost and what subscription model fits me
best? This is impossible to answer. The projects I work with may be
intense layout in 6-24 months, then there is mostly idling for years
until we need to make a new product.So I, and maybe my team have to
spend some time trying to get a forecast. Not just that, but if we go
for 6 months subscription, we have to spend time on doing a new aval
before the next layout wave! This is wasted time compare to the other
model, so we will maybe end up (after wasting that time) throwing our
money at continuous subscription to avoid spending even more time trying
to find a "good" answer.

The comfort of only needing to trust myself keeping binaries(inc keys),
not having to worry or make purchase decisions until you are confident
new features will ease your job, is very pleasant to a busy mind, and
even worth paying premium for.
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168716 is a reply to message #168715] Fri, 20 January 2017 09:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
My own concern is about the mechanism, I need guranteed access to my designs through Eagle, no matter what external factors are present.

License enforcement systems are by their nature quite fragile, because they are designed to prevent software from starting if they believe that the machine has changed (otherwise people would copy relevent data from one machine to another).

In other words you may find that despite having let Eagle ping the servers recently a system change on your computer means that the software needs to authenticate again.

If you are offline at this point, or the server is down, you're screwed.

Worse, if the system update was actually incompatible with the license checking mechanism then the software provider has to release an update before it will run at all.

Lastly in the longer term we may try to access our Eagle files 10 years from now and find that they are incompatible, perhaps Eagle has shut down or radically changed. We will have no way of using those designs.

That they have a fairly open file format mitigates my concerns very slightly. Otherwise I would not even consider it.

Matt Berggren has said that a future update will ensure that after 14 days of no connectivity the software will revert to freeware mode, where it can be used as a reader on any designs, and hopefully allow generation of manufacturing data. Furthermore without paying anything you can use the freeware version, BUT you must get online after installation at least once.

SO after installing or reinstalling Eagle (or if the license check fails due to system update) Eagle will apparently fail to start at all without an internet connection. As a compromise I would really like to see a true fallback, that will revert to freeware mode without ever having had any internet connection at all.

This would be more robust and will have no effect on their current pricing scheme (it is freeware either way, why do you need an internet connection?). I would like to see some response from Matt on this.

Oh and to be clear, I would gladly pay a premium for a real offline perpetual license. However I'm pretty sure Matt doesn't have the authority to offer this, because Autodesk has (I believe) moved all of their software to this subscription model, so I highly doubt they'd let him make an exception for Eagle.
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168717 is a reply to message #168715] Fri, 20 January 2017 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed
out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not
going to change anything.

On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already
proven as being liars: They promised that it's *not* going subscription,
but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none. They
promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem
to work very well. I've lost all my good faith in autodesk.

They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing
scheme. Is this sarcasm or what is it? I had to pay something around 500
EUR in the past for a transition to a new version. Now, I'm getting a
one year subscription for that amount of money. When the year is over, I
can't start new projects. All the money vanished in the void, you are
required to pay again. And what will the pricing be one year from now?
Did I mention that I don't trust them any longer?

We are in 2017, a time with existing alternatives. I'm going to evaluate
them in the foreseeable future.

Was that real, less real or was it grumpy? It's real disappointment,
that's for sure.

Rene
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168718 is a reply to message #168717] Fri, 20 January 2017 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 20.01.2017 11:20, René König wrote:
> The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed
> out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not
> going to change anything.

We should not give up so easy.
>
> On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already
> proven as being liars: They promised that it's *not* going subscription,
> but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none. They
> promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem
> to work very well. I've lost all my good faith in autodesk.

Yep.

>
> They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing
> scheme. Is this sarcasm or what is it? I had to pay something around 500
> EUR in the past for a transition to a new version. Now, I'm getting a
> one year subscription for that amount of money. When the year is over, I
> can't start new projects. All the money vanished in the void, you are
> required to pay again. And what will the pricing be one year from now?
> Did I mention that I don't trust them any longer?
>
> We are in 2017, a time with existing alternatives. I'm going to evaluate
> them in the foreseeable future.
>
> Was that real, less real or was it grumpy? It's real disappointment,
> that's for sure.

I'm also.
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168751 is a reply to message #168717] Fri, 20 January 2017 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1291
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/20/2017 5:20 AM, René König wrote:
> The discussion of issues is kind of superfluous. They already pointed
> out that their position is not negotiable. Whatever we discuss, it's not
> going to change anything.
>
> On the other hand, that is not necessarily the truth. They have already
> proven as being liars: They promised that it's *not* going subscription,
> but it is. They promised an upgrade path to V8 and there's none.
Hi Rene,

There is an upgrade path to V8. All of your files still work and you
should have received an e-mail with a special pricing offer to move to
subscription. There isn't a perpetual license this is true, but there is
an upgrade path.
They
> promised super exiting features and none. And what is new does not seem
> to work very well.
The tone of this feels like you haven't tried it. The new routing engine
is extremely nice and set the base for push and shove in the future.
Designblocks works very well allowing you to turn pieces of your
schematic into effectively library parts.

There's the BGA fanout router, pinsnapping in the schematic, slicing and
more stuff.

If you have tried it, then I apologize for my assumption and would like
to know the issues you have run into. The pace of development is much
faster now so things are getting fixed quickly. Please let me know any
bugs you have run into.

>
> They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the new pricing
> scheme.

As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I thought the
monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three years it's about the
price of a new license. With that said if you never upgraded then yes I
see your point.

I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those who
can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168757 is a reply to message #168751] Fri, 20 January 2017 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baron
Messages: 92
Registered: November 2008
Location: UK
Member
Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

> I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those
> who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jorge Garcia

I disagree ! There are at least two other newsgroups discussing these
issues.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168762 is a reply to message #168757] Fri, 20 January 2017 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1291
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/20/2017 4:18 PM, Baron wrote:
> Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:
>
>> I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those
>> who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Jorge Garcia
>
> I disagree ! There are at least two other newsgroups discussing these
> issues.
>

Hi Baron,

With all do respect, I think you are in error. I'm keeping track of this
forum, the EEVblog forums, and the Autodesk forums.

If I'm missing anything please let me know, since I would like to
participate on those as well and try to calm fears as best as I can.

Just keep because we don't respond to every post doesn't mean we don't
see them and take them into account. You can imaging the amount of post
we are getting at this point in time.

hth,
Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168779 is a reply to message #168751] Sat, 21 January 2017 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 20.01.2017 um 20:07 schrieb Jorge Garcia:
> As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I thought the
> monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three years it's about the
> price of a new license. With that said if you never upgraded then yes I
> see your point.

You're really assuming that one did not make use of upgrade discounts
and always paid the full price over and over again?

To be clear: I started with version 3.5 back in 1996. I paid for all
following major upgrades. The only missing version here is 7, for
obvious reasons. That means 10500 Euro if it had been subscription based
all the time.

I paid significantly less. Now, as we are subscription based, I pay
nothing more at all. That's cheap. And it's still possible to start new
projects, wow!

> I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by those who
> can make decisions. Let's see what happens.

There's nothing going to happen. What do you expect?
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168788 is a reply to message #168762] Sat, 21 January 2017 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baron
Messages: 92
Registered: November 2008
Location: UK
Member
Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:

> On 1/20/2017 4:18 PM, Baron wrote:
>> Jorge Garcia prodded the keyboard with:
>>
>>> I can tell you one thing, all of these post are being seen by
>>> those who can make decisions. Let's see what happens.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Jorge Garcia
>>
>> I disagree ! There are at least two other newsgroups discussing
>> these issues.
>>
>
> Hi Baron,
>
> With all do respect, I think you are in error. I'm keeping track of
> this forum, the EEVblog forums, and the Autodesk forums.
>
> If I'm missing anything please let me know, since I would like to
> participate on those as well and try to calm fears as best as I can.
>
> Just keep because we don't respond to every post doesn't mean we
> don't see them and take them into account. You can imaging the
> amount of post we are getting at this point in time.
>
> hth,
> Best Regards,
> Jorge Garcia

I'd forgotten about the EEVblog forum. Try sci.electronics.xxx
There may also be others...
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Re: Subscription model issues [message #168843 is a reply to message #168751] Mon, 23 January 2017 13:58 Go to previous message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 593
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/20/2017 02:07 PM, Jorge Garcia
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:o5tn6g$51r$1@baboon.cadsoft.de" type="cite"><br>
&gt;
<br>
&gt; They also said that we will be "pleasantly surprised" by the
new pricing
<br>
&gt; scheme.
<br>
<br>
As the guy who said it, I can assure you it's not sarcasm. I
thought the monthly flexibility was pretty cool and over three
years it's about the price of a new license. With that said if you
never upgraded then yes I see your point.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Jorge,<br>
<br>
I'm sure you didn't intend for the pricing to be sarcastic.  It
seems like Autodesk may have misled you to some extent in order for
you to come to the conclusion of "pleasantly surprised".  Below is
an excerpt from my response to Matt (emphasis added):<br>
<blockquote>The only example you could present where this
subscription based license
will save the customer money is for a part time Eagle user. Look
at it
this way...<br>
<br>
In the last <b>4-1/2 years, I spent about $1000</b> to upgrade a
3-user Professional license from v5 to v6, and to v7.
Based on the current pricing of $500 per user per year, the
equivalent
3-user Ultimate license will now cost <b>$6,750 for 4-1/2 years</b>.<br>
<br>
Matt, help me to understand how the total cost of ownership is now
lower
than what it was?<br>
</blockquote>
You may have been referring to the first-time purchasers - an
audience that is unlikely to be monitoring this newsgroup.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
    - Chuck<br>
<br>
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