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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168803 is a reply to message #168798] Sun, 22 January 2017 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Matt,

You have been proved untrustworthy.
Why should we trust you now??

Quote:
@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. Smile At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not.


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529

So, everything you say now will be worthless within six months!

And you want me to trust our business to you?



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168807 is a reply to message #168341] Sun, 22 January 2017 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Quote:

2.1.3 Territory. Except as otherwise authorized in writing by Autodesk, the licenses granted in this Agreement are granted only for the Territory. Nothing in this Agreement permits Licensee (including, without limitation, Licensee's Personnel, if any) to Install or Access the Licensed Materials outside of the Territory.


Territory? So I can't use Eagle when I travel outside of the states without buying a new license for that territory?

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html

Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168808 is a reply to message #168341] Sun, 22 January 2017 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
As it stands with the current EAGLE subscription prices... OrCAD standard price = 3 years of EAGLE subscription, OrCAD Pro pice = 5 years subscription. I am still evaluating KiCad but I am now also considering the possibility of getting OrCAD standard. Comparison Page - OrCAD PCB Designer | OrCAD (http://www.orcad.com/products/orcad-pcb-designer/compare)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168810 is a reply to message #168808] Sun, 22 January 2017 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> rbtx99 wrote:
>
> As it stands with the current EAGLE subscription prices... OrCAD standard price = 3 years of EAGLE subscription, OrCAD Pro pice = 5 years subscription. I am still evaluating KiCad but I am now also considering the possibility of getting OrCAD standard. Comparison Page - OrCAD PCB Designer | OrCAD ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .orcad.com%2Fproducts%2Forcad-pcb-designer%2Fcompare)
I think what you are looking at there is just the PCB editor. You'd also need OrCAD Capture too for schematic entry in oder to have a complete suite to replace EAGLE so price wise it may not as favourable against EAGLE as you think.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168813 is a reply to message #168371] Sun, 22 January 2017 19:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:24:28 +0100, Joop <teuniz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years
> without getting enough
> revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system
> or they will sell
> Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the
> licensing system as well).

Or most likely, Autodesk will fail to make their projections with
Eagle and just pull the plug, killing the product outright.

I've just had a similar thing happen on the hardware side. I use
(used) an Atmel processor in our main product. Before I made the
selection. my factory rep assured me of at least a 10 year life. That
was 2011.

Fast forward to a couple months ago. MicroChip, Atmel's competitor,
bought out Atmel. About 2 weeks later I got an official end-of-life
notice on my processor. And they raised the price of the existing
stock from less than $4 to $14.

I chose a TI replacement processor, based mainly on their excellent
support and price/performance ratio. And to add icing to the cake,
yesterday TI announced that they were freewaring all their development
tools.

Fortunately I have enough stock of Atmel processors to allow me to
design a new board and port the software over. The new board is being
done in KiCAD.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168814 is a reply to message #168400] Sun, 22 January 2017 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 18:24:06 +0200, Jussi Ilvonen <jilvonen@gmail.com>
wrote:


> Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

The KiCAD manual is good. What I did was take one of my simpler
support boards and re-render it in KiCAD. You'll be right at home in
the schematic editor. The layout editor takes a bit more time.

One other thing you might consider is supporting the KiCAD development
through CERN. Here is the donation page.

https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6

Yesterday I kicked in $500. I expect to do that a couple of times a
year.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168815 is a reply to message #168410] Sun, 22 January 2017 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 12:06:25 -0500, Jorge Garcia
<jorge@cadsoftusa.com> wrote:


> With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
> is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
> should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature
> implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
> capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
> other program.

CERN has taken over the development support costs and they now have
several full time paid programmers. The best of both worlds - FOSS
software supported by a commercial entity.

>
> If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
> would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
> I can reach out to and get a quick response.

Subscribe to the KiCAD support list and see. It's every bit as
responsive as this group is. And since KiCAD is open source, if I
need something fixed right now, either I'll fix it if I have time or
if I don't, I'll hire a programmer. Then send the fix back to CERN to
be incorporated into the main codebase.

This issue isn't about money, it's about control. I can't speak for
the others but I must have control over everything in the critical
path for my projects. That's why we're a Linux shop. The only closed
source software we use is the TI development environment. And it's
just a GUI for gcc.

> I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to
> give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts
> just seem to be reactionary.

Not reactionary since we've been through this before.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168820 is a reply to message #168810] Sun, 22 January 2017 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
I was speaking with someone who purchased it and he told me he paid £1650 for the Standard including some extras that he needed. He designs PCB with it start to end so presumably that includes capture too.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168825 is a reply to message #168756] Mon, 23 January 2017 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lorenz
Messages: 645
Registered: December 2006
Senior Member
David Harris wrote:

> I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and
> was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year
> about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it.

just get 7.7 from ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7 your 7.5
licence is applicable for all 7.x
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168826 is a reply to message #168813] Mon, 23 January 2017 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Neon John wrote on Sun, 22 January 2017 20:12
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:24:28 +0100, Joop <teuniz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years
> without getting enough
> revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system
> or they will sell
> Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the
> licensing system as well).

Or most likely, Autodesk will fail to make their projections with
Eagle and just pull the plug, killing the product outright.


On the contrary, that's very unlikely. If they pull the plug, they will sell it for sure.
If not, all their investments will be lost. When they sell it, they will get back
at least a part of their money.



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168828 is a reply to message #168826] Mon, 23 January 2017 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 23.01.2017 um 08:36 schrieb Joop:
> On the contrary, that's very unlikely. If they pull the plug, they will
> sell it for sure.

But who will be interested in buying a ruined product?

> If not, all their investments will be lost. When they sell it, they will
> get back
> at least a part of their money.

If there is no buyer, this is a good reason to pull the plug some time
sooner, to not let costs sum up.

Rene
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168840 is a reply to message #168828] Mon, 23 January 2017 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168852 is a reply to message #168341] Mon, 23 January 2017 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Royce Arnold
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
Junior Member
Matt,

I wanted to add my corporate opinion on the new subscription license being pursued by AutoDesk for Eagle and other products.  To be blunt, it is unacceptable to us.  We have multiple license of both AutoDesk Product Design Suite Ultimate (or whatever it is being called now) and Eagle Professional.  At this point, our licenses are perpetual and will remain so.  Why is the subscription model unacceptable?  It really boils down to control.  To a slightly lesser extent, these same arguments are applicable to the periodic phone home license approach.

If we were to adopt AutoDesk's subscription model, we would in effect be handing the keys to accessing OUR information over to AutoDesk.  If we stop paying AutoDesk, we loose the ability to access and work with those files.  If AutoDesk has a technical difficulty, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk has a DDoS attach, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk decides that one or more of the products is no longer of interest to them, we could loose access.  If AutoDesk hires a Martin Shkreli who decides Eagle is not making enough money and raises the subscription price, we could loose access.  Since most of the products I'm discussing have either an actual or effective proprietary file format, any price increase with a subscription model could be seen from some view points as extortion like in nature.  These products are not like Microsoft Office, where if that were to happened, I could very likely open them in a alternate application and continue working with little to no problem (at least for the majority of uses).

As a business owner, why would I ever hand over that degree of control to an outside entity.  To quote Jorge, our position on this is "non-negotiable".

I would encourage AutoDesk to examine a solution for businesses that have a similar requirements.  While I remain hopefully, history (particularly with AutoDesk) has not given me any reason to be optimistic.  Now there is much more that I could add, but it would likely be in vain.  If there appears to be a genuine willingness to address these issues, then perhaps.

I will close with the following, I STRONGLY encourage you and the support members to take your customers concerns with a more serious tone.  I really do not believe discussion of ski slopes and designer coffee has any place in these discussions (especially from AutoDesk personnel).  And the idea of mentioning the most charged US political situation in many peoples lifetimes seems ill advised in my opinion (and if you worked for me it would have just gotten you fired).  A large percentage of Eagle users are not even US based.  For those that are, you likely just offended a large number of them.

Sincerely,
Royce Arnold

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168853 is a reply to message #168852] Mon, 23 January 2017 17:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aaron Turner
Messages: 8
Registered: September 2013
Junior Member
Well said Royce!

Btw, your point of "what happens if Autodesk is DDoS'd" is actually a good point.  You may of heard about the huge DDoS's that attacked various sites a few months ago.  Apparently tens of thousands of cheap Chinese internet connected video cameras were infected and were used to generate the worlds largest distributed denial of service attacks (over 600Gbps!!) on certain sites.  It clogged up the Internet and a lot of web sites and end/users were hurt by the side-effects.  A security researcher named Brian Krebs figured out the back story:

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-is-anna-senpai-the-mirai-worm-autho r/





What's Minecraft?  A video game often played by children (think Legos but on your computer).  Turns out running the servers which power this game is good money (people making $50k/mo) and they'd pay for a DDoS of their competitor in hopes that it would drive customers off the competition and hopefully to them.

Again, think about this: World's largest DDoS attack over a video game kids play!  If I were making my living off Eagle, I would be very hesitant to rely on a licensing scheme that is dependent on the Internet working reliably when it is proven that it can be effectively knocked out for tens of thousands of users over a video game.   

Or what if AutoDesk is hacked like Sony was a few years ago and the hackers delete on the data on the license servers?  Even if they had backups, I bet it would take a few days before they had it working again.  Or what about those worms which infect your computer and then encrypt all your data and then black mail you into paying to decrypt it?  The more profitable and successful the company is, the bigger the target.

I can see some hackers looking to make some $$$ start blackmailing companies like AutoDesk.  "Nice licensing server you've got there... would be a shame if something happened to it."

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168854 is a reply to message #168840] Mon, 23 January 2017 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Pollum
Messages: 177
Registered: April 2005
Location: Virginia, USA
Senior Member
Angelos Gonias wrote on Mon, 23 January 2017 11:05
DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/)

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DipTrace looks impressive.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168857 is a reply to message #168341] Mon, 23 January 2017 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rickb
Messages: 15
Registered: March 2016
Location: Junction City, OR USA
Junior Member
For all intents and purposes, Matt Berggren has ceased posting here, so don't expect any replies. I copied my post from here to the Eagle forum at AutoCad and he is ignoring it there as well.

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500

Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum out of his own pocket.

Jorge Garcia may well continue to provide support he for a while but the writing is on the wall.

I really do hope there is enough long term resistance to their rental scheme to cause them to rethink this idea. As for me, I have a perpetual license to the make version and will use it until KiCad matures.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168858 is a reply to message #168852] Mon, 23 January 2017 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Friedrich Bleikamp
Messages: 79
Registered: August 2005
Member
For example, the whole weekend and even now:
- LabVIEW - Licensing
"We're sorry, ni.com is temporarily down for site maintenance."

Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards
Friedrich
-----------------------------------------------
.... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a
functional news reader like Thunderbird!
.... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca
browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168859 is a reply to message #168853] Mon, 23 January 2017 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Royce Arnold
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
Junior Member
Aaron,

Thanks.  I'll admit I had to sit on my hands for a few days to avoid my initial knee jerk reaction.

Yes, DDoS attacks represent a real and present danger to any product depending on the internet for operation.  Because of the nature of the attacks and the structure of the internet, they are extremely hard to defend against.  The bad news is they will only get worse.

Hacking is indeed another real danger.

While not currently in Eagle (not sure of 8 have not tried it and will not be given the current circumstances),  other AutoDesk products have embraced the cloud.  Just imagine all of the corporate data sitting on AutoDesk servers.  How secure are they?  What is the liability of AutoDesk in the event of a data breach?  Again, it all goes back to control.  Yeah, cloud services may offer some great options, but if I loose control, I'm not interested.  If not in Eagle 8, then I would bet it's already on an internal road map for a future version.  If they would only implement it so that it would function off a private server under our control and security, I would be interested. 

Something to keep in mind is AutoDesk is a publicly traded company.  As such, it's primary customers are not the end users, but the shareholders.  While there is some overlap in the interests between the two groups, the primary customers will always win.  I'm not optimistic that this licensing issue will get resolved in a timely enough manner to prevent the majority of the damage.  AutoDesk has been pursuing this license scheme for a couple of years and I have seen no signs of it going away.   

Royce

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168860 is a reply to message #168857] Mon, 23 January 2017 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real
financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum
out of his own pocket.

That forum sounds like a place where lots of disgruntled EAGLE users would gather. DipTrace might want to sponsor that in exchange of advertising. :)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168861 is a reply to message #168852] Mon, 23 January 2017 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
Couldn't agree more.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168863 is a reply to message #168857] Mon, 23 January 2017 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Baron
Messages: 92
Registered: November 2008
Location: UK
Member
Rick Brown prodded the keyboard with:

> For all intents and purposes, Matt Berggren has ceased posting here,
> so don't expect any replies. I copied my post from here to the Eagle
> forum at AutoCad and he is ignoring it there as well.

I recon that he's busy banging someones head against a wall...

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168866 is a reply to message #168768] Mon, 23 January 2017 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> Hi
> Dave as I understand it, your paid v7.5 licence is applicable to v7.7.
> You should be able to load up 7.7 and apply the licence details you
> acquired around v7.5 time
>
> Jorge should be able to confirm this.
>
> HTH
> Warren
>>

Confirmed,

Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168889 is a reply to message #168840] Tue, 24 January 2017 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Dickinson
Messages: 14
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
DipTrace looks good, however I note that their does not appear to be a
Linux version.

Regards
Stephen

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On 23/01/2017 11:05, rbtx99 wrote:
> DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/)
>
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168892 is a reply to message #168889] Tue, 24 January 2017 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Stephen Dickinson wrote:
>
> DipTrace looks good, however I note that their does not appear to be a Linux version.
There isn't a native Mac version either. It just bundles up the windows version and runs under wine. Personally I don't want to use CAD tools that require things like wine to be able to operate as updates to wine have been known to break things. These days there are loads of cross platform frameworks that could be used so writing proprietary Windows code and relying on emulation for cross platform compatibility isn't great. It does mean that if you really must use DipTrace and you want to run it on Linux then it's probably possible to get it to run under wine.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168914 is a reply to message #168892] Tue, 24 January 2017 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Pearce
Messages: 480
Registered: September 2012
Senior Member
On 24/01/17 13:00, rachaelp wrote:
> It does mean that if you really must use DipTrace and you want to run it on Linux then it's probably possible to get it to run under wine.
Their web site says it does work, as I recall, but that's not good
enough for me, for precisely the same reason you gave.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168915 is a reply to message #168840] Tue, 24 January 2017 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dietmar Schwertberger
Messages: 31
Registered: April 2011
Member
On 23.01.2017 12:05, rbtx99 wrote:
> DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/)
Another option is Target 3001: http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html
They even have Eagle import for schematics, boards and libraries.
In Germany, Eagle and Target have been the main competitors in their
segment for a long time already.
The price structure is similar.

Regards,

Dietmar
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168936 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 25 January 2017 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roberto Pedrazzoli
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
Why do I have to spend money in advance to buy an Eagle feature that maybe I will not use?
When I bought my Eagle license, I evaluated the features that I needed and what the program offered.

How many updates will be released in the subscription month/year?
What kind of updates will be released?
I hope they are just new features, because bug fixes should be free.

Sorry, but I pay only for the functions I'm sure that I'll use in my work.
So probably, I keep my license 7.7 and simultaneously I'll try an alternative product.

Best Regards,
Roberto

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168941 is a reply to message #168936] Wed, 25 January 2017 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote:
>
> Why do I have to spend money in advance to buy an Eagle feature that maybe I will not use?
> When I bought my Eagle license, I evaluated the features that I needed and what the program offered.
You aren't paying money in advance to buy features you may not use. You are renting the product for the period of the subscription.

> Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote:
>
> How many updates will be released in the subscription month/year?
> What kind of updates will be released?
> I hope they are just new features, because bug fixes should be free.
There will be a mixture of both but it's irrelevant because if you have an active subscription you will be entitled to update to a newer version that fixes the bugs, if you don't you won't be entitled to use anything but the freeware version. You will still be able to update your software to the latest freeware version which fixes these bugs but you may not be able to take advantage of the fixes because you may not be able to use them with the freeware restrictions.

> Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote:
>
> Sorry, but I pay only for the functions I'm sure that I'll use in my work.
> So probably, I keep my license 7.7 and simultaneously I'll try an alternative product.
Really? Do you take every piece of software, divide it up by the number of features, assign a "worth" to each of those and offer the supplier what you think those features are worth?

The big three ECAD vendors, Mentor, Altium and Cadence, all sell their tools with a requirement to also buy annual support which entitles you to assistance and to download updates and bug fixes. Without paying the large annual maintenance fee you get nothing and the licenses often become unavailable unless you also pay a one-off additional fee to convert to a perpetual archive license once you stop paying for maintenance. It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design?

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168942 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 25 January 2017 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tomas Franke
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I have the question
Will there be the 160cm2 Non profit or amater usage? as it is in 7.x ?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168943 is a reply to message #168942] Wed, 25 January 2017 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tomas Franke
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
also, I dont want pay yearly for something I usr for no profit.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168964 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 25 January 2017 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi Matt,

I am a long term Eagle user, and one force point of Egle is the (old) licence schema: I pay for a major release and I have the right to perpetual use of that release, when a new major release comes out I have the choice to to pay to migrate to that. This is an assurance for me.
Other softwares I use have a similar licence schema: I pay for a maintenance yearly and I have the right to get the latest release and support; if I stop the maintenance, *I still have* the right to continue to fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period forever, but *I loose* the right to get support and newer releases both. I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please, remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!).
About Eagle V8 I heard a dreadful news: the licence schema is solely for subscription: if I stop to pay I loose the right to use the software, since it just becomes a viewer. This news is sad for me (no assurance to get a perpetual right of use, even of an outdate release) and for you (you have lost a customer).
I had planned to update my Eagle to the latest release this year, but you lead me to avoid the update and to evaluate alternatives.
Why on the Earth do you like to punish your legal users?
Why on the Earth do not you listen your users? I just read tons of comments and no one user is happy for your choice!

Kind regards

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168968 is a reply to message #168964] Wed, 25 January 2017 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 25.01.2017 15:41, Alberto Vignati wrote:
> if I stop the maintenance, *I still have* the right to continue to
fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period
forever, but *I loose* the right to get support and newer releases both.
I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please,
remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!).

This is exactly the point that is unacceptable with the new model.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168970 is a reply to message #168410] Wed, 25 January 2017 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi Jorge,

believe me: the big problem is the licence schema, not the price! I pay for maintenance of other tools more and more than you ask to pay for Eagle, but if I stop to pay *I DO NOT LOOSE THE RIGHT TO FULLY USE SUCH* *TOOLS!!!!*
I loose only the right to have updates, upgrades and support. Is it so difficult to understand?

Kind regards

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168973 is a reply to message #168941] Wed, 25 January 2017 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi Rachael,

"+The big three ECAD vendors, Mentor, Altium and Cadence, all sell their tools with a requirement to also buy annual support which entitles you to assistance and to download updates and bug fixes. Without paying the large annual maintenance fee you get nothing and the licenses often become unavailable unless you also pay a one-off additional fee to convert to a perpetual archive license once you stop paying for maintenance. *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"

that's the point: Autodesk at this time does not offer a perpetual licence, for me this means that I still use the old version of Eagle for the old and current projects and for the new I will switch to an alternative which gives me the assurance to edit and manage a project forever. This is the lifecycle of my designs and the reason of which it is not acceptable the new schema. Unless Autodesk changes its policies this is what I will do.

Best regards

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168996 is a reply to message #168363] Thu, 26 January 2017 05:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bernd Felsche
Messages: 7
Registered: July 2007
Junior Member
rachaelp <noreply-391202@element14.com> wrote:
>> Joop14 wrote:

>> Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older
>> versions.
>> No need to activate again when you replace your computer.
>> What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

> I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge
> company and have been providing products in other areas for many
> years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going
> to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so
> the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is
> miniscule.

Hewlett-Packard was also huge. They bought Palm. Brought out new devices.

Then canned the new products at almost the same time that they were
released and stopped support for older Palm users a short time thereafter.

A "phone home" bfeature is unacceptable to those working in
disconnected environments. Disconnected for security reasons
(proprietary or other secrets) or because the only connection that
they have to the Internet is sporadic or unreliable.

AutoDesk *fails* sometimes. e.g. Fusion360 users were left twiddling
their thumbs not so long ago when the server became unreachable to
some. Machines dependent on Fusion 360 in the workflow could no
longer make new stuff. AutoDesk appear to have relaxed the "offline
mode" since then but this is what you get now:

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdc articles/sfdcarticles/How-to-work-in-offline-mode-in-Fusion-360.html
> Can I still work in offline mode?
>
> Yes, you can still continue to work on your designs in offline mode.
> Designs that are cached locally on your machine will be available
> from the data panel. You can work offline up to a period of two
> weeks if needed. After this, Fusion 360 will need to sync back
> online so that you can stay on the latest version.

The licence scheme is brain-damaged even for those who accept the
risks of connectivity. Causing the software to stop functioning when
it cannot "phone home" is a show-stopper for those who don't see
a perpetual existence of AutoDesk or its willingness to support
Eagle in the years to come. There is not infrequently a need for
designers of products to provide support for between 2 and 25 years
with the median somewhere around 7 years; depending on product and
markets.

As far as I can tell, AutoDesk revenue streaming licence scheme for
version 8.x can only guarantee to support Eagle users' needs for 14
days; the longest phone-home interval.

It's not paranoia to anticipate and to plan for the failure of
things that can fail; it's called "engineering".
--
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\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an
X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
/ \ and postings | --HL Mencken
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169002 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 26 January 2017 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> Hi All --
>
> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>
>
>
>
This licensing issue is sure being discussed in a number of places! All around the internet there seems to be moans about it.

I've used a number of programs in the past for PCB design

* EE Designer
* Pads

and at least one or two others. But I have not designed boards for some time.

Looking now to start designing some boards again, this licensing model would not attract me in the least. In fact, it just re-enforces the view that many have, that Kicad KiCad EDA (http://kicad-pcb.org/)  , which now has backing from The European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and is rapidly improving, is a better choice. The main group of people that seem to be considering the Eagle license are those with existing designs, that want to keep those designs. It is too time-consuming to move them to Kicad. But for anyone like myself, who is does not have any designs of this type, it just seems a no-brainer.

I'm 53 years old, so over the years have come across quite a bit of license server based systems. My experience, and seems to be one shared by many, is that it is a pain for legitimate users, but  long-term does not stop people creating hacks. I was reading the time-nuts list, and someone on there wrote that he used to run a lab with Eagle, and often students would spend 20 minutes trying to get a license. I've had problems installing MATLAB and Mathematica - both due to license issues. Agilent's EMPro, and Anysys's HFSS have both caused me license headaches when a legitimate license was paid for.

A number of posts on different forums are now suggesting unhappy Eagle customers donate to KiCad. Donations are via CERN  https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6 The number of donations in January 2017 is almost double the same number in January 2016. I wonder if the Autodesk changes on Eagle licensing have had an influence on KiCad funding? Autodesk might be getting a double hit here

* Upset their own customers
* Encouraging others to donate to a competitive product, that happens to be free.

Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169034 is a reply to message #168973] Fri, 27 January 2017 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 20
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati
<noreply-491088@element14.com> wrote:

> Hi Rachael,
>
> *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do
> we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"

Bingo!

As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this
morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from
2009 had quit working.

Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed
on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and
tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes.

I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that!

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169037 is a reply to message #169034] Fri, 27 January 2017 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1759
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 28/01/2017 5:48 a.m., Neon John wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati
> <noreply-491088@element14.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rachael,
>>
>> *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do
>> we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"
>
> Bingo!
>
> As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this
> morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from
> 2009 had quit working.
>
> Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed
> on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and
> tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes.
>
> I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that!
>
> John
> John DeArmond
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.tnduction.com
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> See website for email address
>


Hi all
In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's
example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity
befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities
which can load large designs.

Warren

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169038 is a reply to message #169037] Fri, 27 January 2017 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59
In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's
example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity
befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities
which can load large designs.


I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists.

From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install even the freeware version without using the license server.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169040 is a reply to message #169038] Fri, 27 January 2017 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1759
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 28/01/2017 7:05 a.m., Justyn wrote:
> warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59
>> In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's
>>
>> example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity
>> befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities
>>
>> which can load large designs.
>
>
> I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some
> reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists.
>
> From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install
> even the freeware version without using the license server.

Hi

That's a good point.

I would keep v7.7. available. It will likely be good for viewing new
designs done in Autodesk Eagle, for a while at least. One would need to
verify that.

We need to understand if the Autodesk freeware version (at least) stores
a file that can be backed up and restored with a rebuild, that does not
require going online.

Warren



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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169042 is a reply to message #169040] Fri, 27 January 2017 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 13:23
That's a good point.

I would keep v7.7. available. It will likely be good for viewing new
designs done in Autodesk Eagle, for a while at least. One would need to
verify that.


My guess is that already reusable design blocks will break backwards compatibility, perhaps you can avoid it by not using the feature.

I can imagine that it won't take long for other less avoidable format changes to turn up, for example updates to the footprint file format.

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 13:23
We need to understand if the Autodesk freeware version (at least) stores
a file that can be backed up and restored with a rebuild, that does not
require going online.


I agree, a good question, although I think I'm personally moving on from this strategy. It is all too risky.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169049 is a reply to message #168996] Fri, 27 January 2017 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time.  We have also agreed internally to build an exporter to legacy (v7) EAGLE to help quell the fears of legacy users...this is on our roadmap for this year. 

Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version.

best regards,

matt

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169050 is a reply to message #169049] Fri, 27 January 2017 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Quote:
Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time.

Will you be publishing the spec/dtd for that file type?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169052 is a reply to message #169038] Fri, 27 January 2017 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
It is not even a question. Online activation is way too risky. I've been using EAGLE as a hobbyist since I was 17 years old and for more than 10 years as a business. There is absolutely no way I am putting my entire life's work on the hands of Autodesk. I want an activation key I can use on any computer I please now and any time in the future. If Autodesk can't provide someone else will.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169054 is a reply to message #169049] Sat, 28 January 2017 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1759
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 28/01/2017 11:16 a.m., Matt Berggren wrote:
>
>
> ...... Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version.
>
> best regards,
>
> matt
>



Hi Matt
Now there's the problem, which I confess to overlooking previously.

If you have to rebuild your PC and the internet validation is not
available at that time, you cannot even use the freeware version as
currently you would need to go on-line to validate it once.

I suggest you change things so that when you seek to download the
software for the first time you need to have previously registered with
Autodesk. That gives your company the metrics of who is downloading etc.
Once that is done once you can download the product and it, as freeware
restricted , does not have to revalidate unless you wish to obtain
updates later than that initial package.

With A PC rebuild you would simply reinstall the package you initially
downloaded and you would be up and running on the freeware version.
Hence no dependency on an internet connection or licensee validation
infrastructure at all at that time.

HTH
Warren

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169056 is a reply to message #169050] Sat, 28 January 2017 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
We will.  Yes.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169104 is a reply to message #169050] Mon, 30 January 2017 05:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
Hi,
The dtd file is in the EAGLE\DOC folder.
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169162 is a reply to message #168373] Wed, 01 February 2017 07:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hello Ed,

1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk?

2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)".
https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891

What is now true?

Thank you very much
Best Regards
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169175 is a reply to message #169162] Wed, 01 February 2017 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/1/2017 2:09 AM, Gerald Schwarz wrote:
> Hello Ed,
>
> 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk?

He is the director of EAGLE and a few other products here at Autodesk.
He is the man at the helm of EAGLE and any decisions related to EAGLE
now go through him. He's also a part of the community as an engineer and
designer.

You can find out more about him here:
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/3659220

For his projects check out technolomaniac on hackaday.io
https://hackaday.io/matt
>
> 2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)".
> https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891
>
> What is now true?

This is where we stand now. EAGLE is going full subscription, we have as
of right now free, standard and premium tiers.

Here are what each offers (I'm excluding free because you made clear in
the other post that you didn't care about free).

Standard
160cm^2 area(no longer fixed), 4 Layers(page will be corrected to
reflect this it currently says 2 layers), 99 sheets.
For $100/year or $15/month.

Premium
Unlimited area(EAGLE technically can't do more that 4m x 4m because of
how it represents points in space. No one makes a single board that
big), 16 layers, 999 sheets.
For $500/year or $65/month.

EAGLE will be releasing updates far more frequently. We are looking at
somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-9 updates per year. Just in January
we are looking at 2 releases.

We will no longer be waiting for major releases to release new features.
New features will be released throughout the year.

If the subscription expires, EAGLE will fall back to free mode. You can
still review your designs and generate manufacturing data. You just
won't be able to modify it outside the limits of the free version.

The group command is by default active and setup to behave in a more
familiar way compared to how other tools use their selection functions.
If you want the old behavior back you can click Options > Set > Misc
uncheck the Group default on option. This will make group behave just
like you are used to.

I think that covers everything you asked in the other post but let me
know if that is not the case.

>
> Thank you very much
> Best Regards
> Gerald
> ---
>
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>

Hi Gerald,

See my comments inline above. Let me know if there's anything else I can
do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169177 is a reply to message #169175] Wed, 01 February 2017 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
Hi Jorge,

Could you please confirm one way or the other whether it will be made possible to install Eagle in free mode without an internet connection?

This is important for long term contingency planning.

Thanks.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169178 is a reply to message #169177] Wed, 01 February 2017 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/1/2017 5:35 PM, Justyn wrote:
> Hi Jorge,
>
> Could you please confirm one way or the other whether it will be made
> possible to install Eagle in free mode without an internet connection?
>
> This is important for long term contingency planning.
>
> Thanks.

Hi Justyn,

I hope you're doing well. You can see point number 1 on Matt's response
to the EAGLE license recommendation thread. I've copied it below for
your convenience:

"
1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection
the first time you open it.
"

This is the latest information I have on the subject.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169185 is a reply to message #169178] Thu, 02 February 2017 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim Pedersen
Messages: 1
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Well, that pretty much make Eagle a no go now.
Just as well that I have a bunch of the older versions around.

Now there much be some open source PCB programs thats worth supporting

K

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169186 is a reply to message #169175] Thu, 02 February 2017 07:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Jorge Garcia wrote on Wed, 01 February 2017 21:27
On 2/1/2017 2:09 AM, Gerald Schwarz wrote:
> Hello Ed,
>
> 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk?

He is the director of EAGLE and a few other products here at Autodesk.
He is the man at the helm of EAGLE and any decisions related to EAGLE
now go through him. He's also a part of the community as an engineer and
designer.

You can find out more about him here:
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/3659220

For his projects check out technolomaniac on hackaday.io
https://hackaday.io/matt
>
> 2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)".
> https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891
>
> What is now true?

This is where we stand now. EAGLE is going full subscription, we have as
of right now free, standard and premium tiers.


Five months ago Matt Berggren wrote:

Quote:
@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. Smile At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap.
Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product
do that? No, of course not.


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169202 is a reply to message #169175] Thu, 02 February 2017 15:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Jorge,

Thank you for the comments.

> If the subscription expires, EAGLE will fall back to free mode. You can
> still review your designs and generate manufacturing data. You just
> won't be able to modify it outside the limits of the free version.

If so, then we cannot create complex components with the version 8 or newer.
This is too unsecure for the future.
Broken components will be a programmed "super Gau".
I must create now  the components with the version 6.6.0 because i have it in pro version.
Other users can create them with their last perpetual version (e.g. 7.5.0),
or going into the risk that after expiring the components will not work correct.

// -> The argument "You can review..., ... generate manufacturing data..." looks a bit like lobbyism.
How often do we have to generate this data, not often, only once or twice by sending to our circuit board
manufacturer or by checking by our customer.

This is done by completing our projects. Then all data is stored, archived and returned to our customers.

So, now the components are always used endlessly.
The components are also used for other projects.
->
This is the 2nd important point because we need all the layers from the small PCB to the large PCB.

This is our 2nd argument.
And that is not lobbying, but it is our technical and business life.

->

We will see what this year will bring with Eagle.
Last week I received an email from Autodesk Community
"Redeem your customer loyalty discount" with a promotion over 50% discount.
"ähm...," is that true? Then I feel happy and will use it.
Then it helps me to skip version 7 directly.

->
At least I can work with the full version in the first year.
In the second year, the truth will emerge, whether to lock up and search for another tool,
or with Eagle to continue working in further years.

I hope that AutoDesk calculates this and goes closer a little more to its customers.

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169203 is a reply to message #169185] Thu, 02 February 2017 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Phil Hobbs
Messages: 5
Registered: March 2013
Junior Member
We have a three-seat license to Eagle 6 Pro, but with this latest snafu we've switched to Diptrace.  Wasn't that hard.  (As a matter of fact we made the decision at the time of the Autodesk purchase, because we were pretty sure they'd do something like this.  Otherwise we'd have bought Eagle 7 Pro.)

Diptrace has ASCII import/export.  It also supplies Eagle ULPs that export Eagle schematics, boards, *and libraries*.

One drawback of Diptrace is that it isn't directly scriptable.  We've made a lot of Python scripts that hack up Diptrace's ASCII files, so instead of running a ULP as in Eagle, you export stuff, run a Python script on it, and import it again.  The ULPs that Diptrace supplies are good sample code for how to do that.

We thought of switching to KiCad, but our layout person much prefers Diptrace.

So there's life after Eagle.  A pity that Autodesk screwed the pooch like this--we'd certainly have stayed with Eagle otherwise.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169205 is a reply to message #169202] Thu, 02 February 2017 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
>
> We will see what this year will bring with Eagle.
> Last week I received an email from Autodesk Community
> "Redeem your customer loyalty discount" with a promotion over 50% discount.
> "ähm...," is that true? Then I feel happy and will use it.
> Then it helps me to skip version 7 directly.
>
Hi Gerald,

The above is very true. Let me know if you have any problems redeeming
it or if you need any other assistance.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169208 is a reply to message #169185] Thu, 02 February 2017 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Kim Pedersen wrote:
>
> Well, that pretty much make Eagle a no go now.
> Just as well that I have a bunch of the older versions around.
>
> Now there much be some open source PCB programs thats worth supporting
>
> K
Kicad

http://kicad-pcb.org/ ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkic ad-pcb.org%2F)

is getting a lot of support from CERN, and has apparently really improved as a result of the funding.



Dave.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169213 is a reply to message #169203] Thu, 02 February 2017 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Phil,

no DipTrace is too small.
Online Store - DipTrace (http://diptrace.com/buy/online-store/)

And the basic problem with this tool is that it is limited with pin numbers.
This is a huge problem.
Realize this please: route a μBGA and SMD plug with so 1000 pins ... well .... ok, you see the problem?
Even with the free version of Eagle, 80mmx100mm and 2 layers, you can route this μBGA, and plug together.
This is a huge advantage for Eagle !!


And, only the fewest board developers make of a 2 layer routes a 4 layer routes.
-> easy to mount wire bridges on each side, you already have a 4 layer board.
What I suggest to AutoDesk is much more important and it is necessary.
The user must be able to create complex components that can be connected to all layers.
Other CAD manufacturers also use pad stacks. Eagle does not have this possibility.
Therefore, this is even more important because the pin is directly related to the board.

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169214 is a reply to message #169213] Thu, 02 February 2017 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Phil Hobbs
Messages: 5
Registered: March 2013
Junior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> no DipTrace is too small.
> Online Store - DipTrace ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdip trace.com%2Fbuy%2Fonline-store%2F)
>
> And the basic problem with this tool is that it is limited with pin numbers.
> This is a huge problem.
> Realize this please: route a μBGA and SMD plug with so 1000 pins ... well .... ok, you see the problem?
> Even with the free version of Eagle, 80mmx100mm and 2 layers, you can route this μBGA, and plug together.
> This is a huge advantage for Eagle !!
>
>
> And, only the fewest board developers make of a 2 layer routes a 4 layer routes.
> -> easy to mount wire bridges on each side, you already have a 4 layer board.
> What I suggest to AutoDesk is much more important and it is necessary.
> The user must be able to create complex components that can be connected to all layers.
> Other CAD manufacturers also use pad stacks. Eagle does not have this possibility.
> Therefore, this is even more important because the pin is directly related to the board.
>
> Gerald
> ----

If I were doing PC mobos, I might care about that, but I'm not.   Diptrace's 2000 pin version is better than good enough for my stuff, and if it ever weren't, I can upgrade to the unlimited version for another 5 bills, i.e. 8 months' rental for the highest-spec Eagle, and then I get to stop paying.  The Diptrace folks also run a service bureau, so they eat their own dog food.

Re: Free Eagle.  You probably aren't going to be doing anything very useful on an 80x100 mm board with a 1000-pin FPGA on it, unless you have some magical connector to get all that stuff off the board.

Diptrace is available in an unlimited-pin version, reasonably priced.

And I have a perpetual license.
And it works stand-alone.
And the license terms are reasonable.

And I'm certainly not going to use rented software for anything whatsoever.  The intellectual property embodied in our designs is way too valuable to put it at another company's mercy like that, especially given Autodesk's flip-flop on the subscription model.

We still like Eagle round here, and would have been very unlikely to change except for the new licensing terms, despite the recent steep price increases--but the rental thing is a deal breaker.

However, we've moved on and won't be back.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169215 is a reply to message #169214] Thu, 02 February 2017 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi,

Yes, it is true. I also do not love what AutoDesk do.


But currently I can not switch to another tool.


I am from PCAD, Protel, Altium Designer ..
.. I have no money to pay 1000e ... EUR every year plus support over 1000 / y.

My last PCAD was 2001 (cost 10000 EUR) plus 1200 EUR support (2001-2003).


Now the Altium Designer costs 6000 EUR; Altium Circuit Maker about 1200 EUR, or more ...

Mr. Friedrich laughs.
http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage
- is a direct contest to Eagle.

Where should I go? - if you have already set up all the tools, has been optimized, depends on its customers ..

Eagle is not used every day, so it is even more difficult.
We also program μController, build modules, but are few employees.

Eagle is a fine European product, now it was nibbled with a bargain billing.

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169216 is a reply to message #169215] Thu, 02 February 2017 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Phil Hobbs
Messages: 5
Registered: March 2013
Junior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes, it is true. I also do not love what AutoDesk do.
>
>
> But currently I can not switch to another tool.
>
>
> I am from PCAD, Protel, Altium Designer ..
> .. I have no money to pay 1000e ... EUR every year plus support over 1000 / y.
>
> My last PCAD was 2001 (cost 10000 EUR) plus 1200 EUR support (2001-2003).
>
>
> Now the Altium Designer costs 6000 EUR; Altium Circuit Maker about 1200 EUR, or more ...
>
> Mr. Friedrich laughs.
> http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .ibfriedrich.com%2Fen%2Findex.html%23productsPage)
> - is a direct contest to Eagle.
>
> Where should I go? - if you have already set up all the tools, has been optimized, depends on its customers ..
>
> Eagle is not used every day, so it is even more difficult.
> We also program μController, build modules, but are few employees.
>
> Eagle is a fine European product, now it was nibbled with a bargain billing.
>
> Gerald
> ---
Well, Diptrace is from Ukraine, which is in Europe too, last time I checked.  (Of course Poland moved 100 miles west some years back, so I may be out of date.)

Diptrace will import your existing Eagle files, including libraries.

But for most purposes, just sticking with Eagle 6/7 is good enough.Plus that way you can archive the tool along with the design.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169433 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 17 February 2017 11:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169437 is a reply to message #169433] Fri, 17 February 2017 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/17/2017 6:37 AM, rbtx99 wrote:
> Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.
>
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>

Hello rbtx99,

Could you point me to the official releases from Sparkfun and Adafruit
stating this?

I haven't heard anything official related to a move to Kicad.

Thank you in advanced.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169438 is a reply to message #169437] Fri, 17 February 2017 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
I happen to land on the Sparkfun website earlier and noticed that some new products have KiCad schematics. You can check it out yourself. From curiosity I googled it and found a thread mentioning that Adafruit are considering to go the same way due to customer demands. Unfortunately I can't easily find it again for you.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169440 is a reply to message #169433] Fri, 17 February 2017 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
> rbtx99 wrote:
>
> Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

Hi,
Adafruit has always mentioned KiCAD as an open source alternative, I couldn't find any official announcement that Sparkfun or Adafruit were transitioning to a specific program.  BTW: we will continue supporting a free version of EAGLE. With our latest update Educators and Students (http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/eagle) can get free access to the premium version.  Any links will be greatly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169441 is a reply to message #169433] Fri, 17 February 2017 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
What was the purpose of the post?  If you're trolling, can you take it elsewhere please and keep the conversation about EAGLE, how to use EAGLE, features of EAGLE, etc?  If you have a specific link other than "check the web for more details!" then great, it'd be good to see!  However in the absence of it, what are you telling us?  Did this discussion have something to do with EAGLE licensing?  Has your EAGLE license stopped working?  Are you using freeware or a paid license?  Feedback welcome. 

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169443 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 17 February 2017 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barry Walker
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2012
Junior Member
The purpose of that post was to get your attention.  Your license changes have likely destroyed your product.  You haven't listened to your small customers.  Adafruit and Sparkfun are concrete evidence from your bell cow customers.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169446 is a reply to message #169443] Fri, 17 February 2017 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
Thank you for the reply.  And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive.   We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable.  This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. 

The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day.  The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. 

Cheers,

Matt - Autodesk.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169450 is a reply to message #169446] Fri, 17 February 2017 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Phil Hobbs
Messages: 5
Registered: March 2013
Junior Member
Well, maybe there's a niche available between Kicad and Diptrace on one side and Altium on the other that you folks can move Eagle into.

Best of luck with that--the SaaS model does seem to be alienating your existing user base pretty comprehensively, so hopefully there are lots of folks waiting in the wings to pounce on the new-improved versions.

I wish you folks well, but I won't be along for the ride.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169451 is a reply to message #169446] Fri, 17 February 2017 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> Thank you for the reply. And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive. We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable. This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE.
>
> The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day. The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matt - Autodesk.
As a matter of interest, what was Autodesk's motivation for changing the licensing so a license server needs to be running? Clearly adding better layer handling improves a tool, but I'm interested what prompted the decision to change the license model. Eagle is obviously aimed at reasonably technically savvy people, and those sort of people tend to foresee the problems such a system could cause.

If you pay a monthly subscription to get access to TV channels, and your TV needs to connect to a license server via the internet, people would probably not care. It's a bit different when the product is a bit of software like Eagle, where people might expect to use it in years to come, and obviously are concerned that they will lose access to the files.

90% of the test equipment in my lab is made by HP or Agilent. Of that, almost all is obsolete, and no longer supported. It is a good job none of it has to connect to the internet to keep working.

I can think of any number of computer programs that were very popular in their time, but are no longer sold or supported. I

* WordPerfect
* Lotus 123
* Wordstar

being 3 that come to mind.

Oh, and just as I was looking for a list of obsolete software, I came across this Autodesk Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement.

Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement (http://www.autodesk.com/products/softimage/overview)

where it says

+*"We regret to inform you that the upcoming 2015 release will be the last one for Softimage® software. This final version is expected to ship on or around April 14, 2014. Autodesk will continue to offer product support until April 30, 2016. We will also provide Softimage support services (including Hot Fixes and Service Packs) to all Softimage customers with Autodesk Subscription, at no cost, until April 30, 2016."*+

Perhaps, when you consider the software packages that are no longer sold or supported, you realize that many people don't want to invest time/effort into something that could stop working.

Barings Bank started trading in 1762. More than 300 years later the bank folded, due to the actions of one single employee - Nick Leason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barings_Bank

Past history of software and commercial companies leaves one feeling that a bit of software that relies on a server someone else controls, is not a good idea. For me personally, it is a no brainer - I would *never* purchase software that works on this license model.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169452 is a reply to message #169446] Fri, 17 February 2017 23:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hello Matt,

I'm sure you've also read my posts in the Eagle forums.
First of all, thank you, also to Jorge, for upgrading my proposal on the circuit boards (standard PCB) layers from two layers to four layers.
Fine, but I asked over 4 years for many other features, features that we had since the 6. version. - e.g. standard PCB 160cm² with 6 layers.
Or features that I've been working with since 198x, 199x's ... with PCAD, what I've suggested to get it also in Eagle.
The ears were sleeping. Since then I know that with Cadsoft will very difficult, it will be messy with all.
So the price, the licensing policy gives me right, gives me true, what I said.
And I'm not alone.

I also know about AutoDesk since the 198x's (in 200x's I was also a reseller of special tools like this, eg Autocad or similar).
Ok, ok, ok, ok, ... actually I can not change the tool, back to PCAD / Master Designer; It's too expensive at the moment. And my customer also have Eagle.
This is the point - Eagle have nothing to do with other (since MSDOS era), and that have over 30 years.
Ok, after 30 years you will now take off Eagle like a rocket; Hm, are you sure the headwind is not too strong yet?
As I have often described:
In order to work properly, we need ALL layers, even with the small standard PCB.
Otherwise it is a toy.

TODAY in the 21st century, the standards are quite different than they were 30 years ago.
How should you use a standard PCB to route PGA or BGA with many pins? So, you NEED more than 4 layers.
The dimension (routing area) is another standard.
Here we can discuss the price.
The next lobbying game is: "schools, universities get 3 years free license".
What should that? Why should we pay for the schools? This is an over advantage.

First with V8.0.x if it is possible:
) What i need is "impedance controlled routing" Wire pairs, where are this button?
) Bus routing is most important, manually also automatic.
) Today we have RF-PCB, not just digitally. Mixed topologies of PCB with e.g. WLAN on board.
) Today we have also air or liquid cooled PCBs or we have components mounted in layers.
) AND THIS ALL WITH STANDARD PCB!
) Pad-Stacks separat through all layers,  that we can create complex pads.
) Flash!!!! of pads not just drawing. Then the pads, or polygons does not coming as octagons.
) Editing wire shapes, vertices (not just mitering, -> Split; where is " Unsplit "). Button "Optimize" - hm.....
... etc....

I have a company that works also hard to get projects, also what i said in the other forums here.
I think, you see the problematics what have small companies.

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169454 is a reply to message #169446] Sat, 18 February 2017 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46
We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable.


What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not willing to revert back to
the old license system, despite that five months ago you said you shouldn't go subscription...

Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

This is something that we've discussed in detail ...


Discussions are futile if they are not followed up by actions the customers want.

Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46
... and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE.


Yes, the Eagle executable isn't linked static to the (Qt) libraries anymore causing a bunch of crashes
and instabilities. Thank you for that.

Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46
The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. 


I highly doubt that. Also because you have proven to be unreliable and I don't believe your promises anymore.
Fool me once, blame on you. Fool me twice, blame on me.

Why can't we buy anymore licenses for V7? Because you are afraid that a (high) percentage
of Eagle users will not switch to the new licensing model? And that for most Eagle users, V7 & V6 are good
enough and are much more stable and will continue to work for many years?




Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169455 is a reply to message #169454] Sat, 18 February 2017 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Fecht
Messages: 118
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Am 18.02.2017 um 08:50 schrieb Joop:
> Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46
>> We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes
>> were undesirable.
>
>
> What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not
> willing to revert back to

I think autodesk have calculated this risk before:
"If we increase the average price/month about 500%, we can lose ~70% of
the old users and we earn more money than with that old license model."

This is a typical decision behavior of big companies. Short thinking
with quarterly financial statements.
The next step is: "If we lose more than 80% we kill this Eagle experiment."

Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a
crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.

Andreas
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169456 is a reply to message #169455] Sat, 18 February 2017 09:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Andreas,


Yes, I've been thinking about this calculation.

But the time is over.
One thing that can be - young people because they do not know how strong the old have fought for an optimal tool.
The young people can be talked a lot, they have no negotiating power "you can do that, you can do that too ...";
But in reality the already ancient functions that have been known since the 1980s.
What AutoDesk sells here as "new", has long been installed with other tools than standard.

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169478 is a reply to message #168341] Sun, 19 February 2017 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

It was just a matter of time...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169481 is a reply to message #169478] Sun, 19 February 2017 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Joop14 wrote:
>
> http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .altium.com%2Feagle-switch%2Faltium-designer%2F)
>
> It was just a matter of time...
>
> --
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>

I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support an updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry.

The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced.

So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommenda t-ion (/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion))

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169482 is a reply to message #169478] Sun, 19 February 2017 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 19.02.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Joop:
> http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/

Great news, thanks for sharing!

Rene
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169483 is a reply to message #169481] Sun, 19 February 2017 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 19.02.2017 um 16:56 schrieb rachaelp:
> ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would
> give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions
> and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a
> completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE
> perpetually

A promise? Worth nothing.

Rene
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169484 is a reply to message #168341] Sun, 19 February 2017 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
The issue here is NOT the price that Altium charges, but the facts that:

** Autodesk blindly and arrogantly refuses to listen to its long term, loyal customers regarding Eagle subscriptions.
** Autodesk delivers a poor muddling of "enhancements" and refuses to offer any viable roadmap or timeline of when requested features will be available.

Because of these repeated and continuing disappointments by Autodesk in supporting customers, competitors like Altium will attempt to make their move.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169486 is a reply to message #169481] Sun, 19 February 2017 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
rachaelp wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:56
... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format...


Matt Berggrens also wrote that Eagle should not go subscription...

technolomaniac wrote on Thu, 7 July 2016 02:01
@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. Smile At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap.
Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product
do that? No, of course not.


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529

Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169487 is a reply to message #169481] Sun, 19 February 2017 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> rachaelp wrote:
>
>
> I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rachael
Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?

Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow
https://www.kashflow.com/
for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC.
Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider.

My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash

https://www.gnucash.org/

which is free and open-source.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169488 is a reply to message #169478] Sun, 19 February 2017 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.02.2017 10:50, Joop wrote:
> http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/
>
> It was just a matter of time...
>

Well the market provides what the customer demands... If not from
Autodesk then from someone else...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169489 is a reply to message #169488] Mon, 20 February 2017 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
I use both Altium and Eagle, professionally, and both have advantages and disadvantages.   I'll continue to use my perpetual license for Eagle 7, and when that no longer works for me I will re-evaluate.

Altium not an option for hobbyists.   With what it costs for a perpetual license from Altium, you could pay for 20 years of subscription fees to Eagle. 

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169491 is a reply to message #169489] Mon, 20 February 2017 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi,

not the price is the problem.

The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version.
The free version has 80cm² with two layers, the standard version has 160cm² with 4 layers (since V8.0.1),
the premium version has unlimited dimension with 16 layers.

So you can select between free version, or free version after one year,
or free version after one month if you have a monthly subscription. ;)

That's the problem.

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169493 is a reply to message #169491] Mon, 20 February 2017 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi Gerald,

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version.

Yes this will happen with the v8 version when the license expires but you can always go back to v6/v7.

In another thread (here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommenda t-ion (/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion)​) it is stated that there is the intention given to provide equivalent legacy v7 licenses with an EAGLE v8 subscription and ensure v8 can export a v7 compatible file. The exact details of what subscription term earns a v7 license isn't given and nothing has been mentioned on this outside of this one post but if this happens then it's workable as v7 is still capable, it just won't have the latest v8 routing features available.

Here is a copy of the pertinent section from that post:


> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> 8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for download.
> 9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get this right just yet, but it's coming).
> 10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.

I know it's not as good as the option to have a perpetual v8 license but I don't think they are going to change their minds on this and for me being able to fall back to v7 is workable.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169494 is a reply to message #169487] Mon, 20 February 2017 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi David,

> David Kirkby wrote:
>
> Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license?
>
> Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets.

That's a good question. Maybe you'd need to provide proof of purchase? I suspect only a few of the professional users doing the most high end boards and pushing the limits of EAGLE would take up this offer. Certainly for most, especially the hobbiest / maker people who aren't using EAGLE commercially, going to KiCAD is the likely path and not Altium Designer. I did see that Altium have also just published a discount on Circuit Studio for existing EAGLE customers too....

Personally I am sticking with EAGLE. I have a v7 license to fall back on anyway but I'm not worrying about the longevity of EAGLE under Autodesk at this point and at the Premium annual subscription level, assuming I would have updated every couple of years under the old system it isn't going to cost me any more really. I can see at the low end, losing the much cheaper non-commercial Maker license does make EAGLE a lot more expensive for people who previously had this license. Hopefully this is something that Autodesk will look at and address. I do also think they would stop some more of the bleeding of existing users if there was a level between Standard and Premium as the restrictions on Standard are still quite restrictive in terms of board area and the cost jump between the two is quite large.

> David Kirkby wrote:
>
> My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow https://www.kashflow.com/ ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww w.kashflow.com%2F) for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC. Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting.
Using something completely cloud based for something as fundamentally important to your business as your company accounts is totally idiotic. I hope you suitable chastised your accountant when they suggested it....

I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169495 is a reply to message #169491] Mon, 20 February 2017 08:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Fecht
Messages: 118
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Gerald Schwarz schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> not the price is the problem.

100% ACK!

> The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version.
> The free version has 80cm² with two layers, the standard version has 160cm² with 4 layers (since V8.0.1),
> the premium version has unlimited dimension with 16 layers.
>
> So you can select between free version, or free version after one year,
> or free version after one month if you have a monthly subscription. ;)
>
> That's the problem.

100% ACK!

Andreas
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169497 is a reply to message #169494] Mon, 20 February 2017 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01

I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data.


Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless (from a business point of view)
when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer board.


Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169498 is a reply to message #169497] Mon, 20 February 2017 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Joop_ wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 11:50
rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01

I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data.


Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless (from a business point of view) when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer board.


But you will be able to, in a perpetual licensed v7 version. Currently v8 files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it and allow export to v7. Assuming (yep I can see the million replies to this already) they give the v7 license entitlement for v8 subscriptions as indicated by Matt in another post then this shouldn't cause any issues.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169499 is a reply to message #169498] Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:
> ...
> Currently v8
> files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so
> if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it
> and allow export to v7.

This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or properties
in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

Klaus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169500 is a reply to message #169499] Mon, 20 February 2017 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40
On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:
> ...
> Currently v8
> files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so
> if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it
> and allow export to v7.

This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or properties
in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle.

Klaus


Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said they will provide.

Maybe instead they could release a v7.8 with an enhanced import feature which could download v8 file personalities so that it can always open up a v8 file directly rather than relying on an export?

I don't know, I'm not giving up on EAGLE as for me the new issues with licensing can be worked around such that the potential implications aren't more severe than having to throw away years of experience, libraries, utilities etc. Others clearly have a differing view but I think switching to something else is more risk than any perceived future risk with the licensing issue, it is for me at least for now.

Best Regards,

Rachael



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169501 is a reply to message #169493] Mon, 20 February 2017 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 227
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Rachael,

sorry, no, absolutely no.
I d not like go back if i have reached the top quality. That's negative logical.
> rachaelp wrote:
>
> Hi Gerald,
>
>> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version.
>
> Yes this will happen with the v8 version when the license expires but you can always go back to v6/v7.

One question: are you an employee in AutoDesk because you argument this? Because i have read this so... "three times" also in other forums.
I cannot go backwards. Minimum that the "file backwards compatibility" not really works. I don't believe that, absolutely not.
Sorry for this question. B-)
V7 would not have the functions that then V8 will have. Also software functions will be not compatible.
And most important, i pay for the V8 and then?... Sorry, with this argument I fall a little bit into angry. Paying double, tripple..??? sorry, grrrrrr......
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> ....
> 10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility.
> ----
>
> I know it's not as good as the option to have a perpetual v8 license but I don't think they are going to change their minds on this and for me being able to fall back to v7 is workable.


Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169502 is a reply to message #169501] Mon, 20 February 2017 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi Gerald,
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> One question: are you an employee in AutoDesk because you argument this? Because i have read this so... "three times" also in other forums.
No. I am NOT an Autodesk employee, just an EAGLE user like you. I'm not 100% happy with the subscription model but I can live with it and I have no real choice anyway. For me I don't think it costs any more and I can mitigate the issues of not being able to edit designs if I were to go to v8 and then end my subscription as it should be possible fall back to v7 and make any edits there. Yes you wouldn't have the latest router but you'd still have all the capabilities of v7 so for most changes this would be just fine. If you aren't happy with the v8 licensing model then just stick with v7, it is perpetual and quite a capable tool and sticking with it is far easier than migrating to something else if it is currently working ok for you. There are still people working happily on v4/v5 licenses after all!

As I have said in may other threads, whilst this licensing change with no perpetual option isn't ideal, for me it's less of an issue than throwing out everything I currently have and starting again from scratch with a new toolset and creating new libraries, methods of working etc.... etc.... etc.... I'm willing to wait an see what happens. Hopefully they may give more concessions on the licensing (maybe this is just wishful thinking?), lets see what the new router brings and what other features are coming and judge how things are in 6-12 months time when we've had a chance to see how EAGLE develops. This is my view anyway. I may be being overly optimistic that things will turn out alright in the end but I'm prepared to wait and see.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169503 is a reply to message #169502] Mon, 20 February 2017 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
And that 'll be very likely what most professional licencees will do. Any retraining/retooling is more expensive (be it hours or money) than te license hit.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169506 is a reply to message #169502] Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Hi Rachel,

you're paying your fee right now in the hope, that there's something
worth it in 6..12 month. What if not?

Yes, I too created a ton of parts in the past 20 years. This is why I'm
still using EAGLE, and my license is still valid. However, I'm not going
to ride that dead horse until the universe collapses. Also, I can't see
why re-creating libraries is such a big problem. Yes, it definitely
causes a lot additional work. But you're creating the parts as you need
them, as you did in the past, one after each other and not all at once.
Then, you don't have to create *all* the parts a second time. Or do you
still use parts added, say, 15 years ago in new designs?

Fortunately, we have all the time we need to evaluate and familiarize in
different packages.

Rene
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169509 is a reply to message #169506] Mon, 20 February 2017 14:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11
Hi Rachel,

you're paying your fee right now in the hope, that there's something
worth it in 6..12 month. What if not?


Nope, I'm not upgrading to v8 until I have seen the stability issues that they introduced completely fixed and I have evaluated the new router (in the freeware version) to ensure it works well. Until then I have my v7 Pro license which I am happy with.

rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11

Yes, I too created a ton of parts in the past 20 years. This is why I'm
still using EAGLE, and my license is still valid. However, I'm not going
to ride that dead horse until the universe collapses.


No, neither am I, if we don't get the stability back and we don't start to see really impressive new features then I will be disappointed and will re-evaluate my design tools at this point. But I am happy with v7 for now and could carry on for quite a while with that if needed so I am going to wait and see.

rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11

Also, I can't see why re-creating libraries is such a big problem. Yes, it definitely
causes a lot additional work. But you're creating the parts as you need
them, as you did in the past, one after each other and not all at once.
Then, you don't have to create *all* the parts a second time. Or do you
still use parts added, say, 15 years ago in new designs?


It's rare to use a part from 15 years ago but occasionally it's needed if you have to go back to something legacy. Creating parts is always a lot quicker when you have an existing parts library to base things upon. There's much more chance you already have the footprint available and often there will be a similar part to adapt your symbol(s) for a new part from and if you are reusing proven library data then less chance of errors being introduced.

Starting completely from scratch is definitely a lot more work and factoring in how much an hour of your time costs to your company then recreating libraries, tools, processes, etc from scratch can add up quickly and dwarf the cost of buying a different toolset.

rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11

Fortunately, we have all the time we need to evaluate and familiarize in
different packages.

Rene


Agreed, there's time to see how things pan out. I'm optimistic things will work out ok in the end Smile

Best Regards,

Rachael


Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169510 is a reply to message #169500] Mon, 20 February 2017 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:
> ...
> Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new
> objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said
> they will provide.

The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable
can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,
there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if
they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something
missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry
involved... ;-).

Klaus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169511 is a reply to message #169510] Mon, 20 February 2017 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 583
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:49
On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:
> ...
> Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new
> objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said
> they will provide.

The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable
can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data,
there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if
they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something
missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry
involved... Wink.

Klaus


Clearly any export to v7 would have to omit or recreate in a compatible way anything that v7 wouldn't natively understand.... Wink

I think the idea being that v7 contains all the features necessary to accurately render a board. Any new objects in the v8 file would be likely related to the new features required for designing the PCB but not for rendering it in a form which can then be subsequently edited by v7.

Best Regards,

Rachael


Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169518 is a reply to message #169511] Mon, 20 February 2017 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
@Klaus, et. Al --

You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity.  I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!).  We had both import and export.  Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). 

Moving forward, a better parser would be smart enough to omit those elements that it doesn't understand in the XML so you dont need to export the data.  This is a pretty high priority item because forward <> backward compatibility will give users confidence that they aren't "trapped" in a specific version.  The move to XML was a wise one as it gives us a lot more flexibility with this process than using a stream writer class, encoding things in bitfields.  This process is underway but it will take some time to implement.  It'll happen this year though I suppose. 

Going back to version 7 is as far back as we want to go because as hierarchy becomes more "complete" we dont want to have to flatten everything out and it could get far more risky.  The trick with any of this is then also maintaining syncing.  So whatever we do to one editor has to be considered in how we deal with the other.  This is par for the course but something to keep our eye(s) on. 

Future releases, we'll update the parser so if some new item is introduced, it just opens the file and omits that item or throws a warning and reverts to a legacy item.  For example, if we added a new "board" object built from complex polys instead of lines and arcs, we need to decide what to do if you want to open this in an older version.  That's one area where we need to be careful and deliberate in our implementation. 

Hope this is clear.  We are thinking about this for sure.  Any feedback (or any insights from the Cadsoft legend!) would be hugely valuable!

Best regards,

Matt - Autodesk.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169519 is a reply to message #169511] Mon, 20 February 2017 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
A promise from Autodesk to support future export compatibility with v7 worth as much as their promise to keep the perpetual license.

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