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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169687 is a reply to message #169683] Fri, 24 February 2017 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 197
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11#Lunar_surface_operations

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169688 is a reply to message #169687] Fri, 24 February 2017 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mcb1
Messages: 19
Registered: March 2014
Junior Member
Sorry I'm failing to see a connection between you asking ​ a very strange question, and a moon landing.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169691 is a reply to message #169688] Fri, 24 February 2017 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 197
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
"May the force be with you!"

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169696 is a reply to message #169671] Fri, 24 February 2017 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
Hi Brent,
> 'snip
> What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.
>
> Brent
With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer.  If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time.  If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have.  Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them.  If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs.

TMI:  "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can"

Best Regards,
Ed
EAGLE Forums (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500http://)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169698 is a reply to message #169696] Fri, 24 February 2017 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi Ed,

Brent talks about risks (I totally agree with him) and you answer about
costs. On the economic side you are saying to pay for use an old version
to maintain old projects, right? This is another reason for which
subscription model is absolutely inacceptable!
On the economic side, if V8 were perpetual I would just upgraded, even
at the full price... But it seems that you do not want my money and
prefere to make me angry.
I am sure you understand perfectly our reason, I can imagine your
position, but you have to do your job. I (We) will fight for a while,
maybe something changes, but one day I (we) will have to take a decision
and, if nothing change, this means to leave Eagle. At the moment I am
using Eagle only for maintenance or little projects, as a big project
will start I will move to other tools; at that point no way to come
back. It is a pity, since I am a long term user and I have not other
reason to change except license model.

Best regards

Alberto

Il 24/02/2017 16:49, Ed Robledo ha scritto:
> Hi Brent,
>> 'snip
>> What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.
>>
>> Brent
> With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer. If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time. If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have. Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them. If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs.
>
> TMI: "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can"
>
> Best Regards,
> Ed
> EAGLE Forums (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500http://)
>
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169699 is a reply to message #169624] Fri, 24 February 2017 17:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/23/2017 2:53 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:
>> Let us know if there's anything we can do for you.
>
> I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this
> money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)
> when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will
> be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance
> (wich is cool, but not that important to me).

Hey Morten,

The reality is that it's your money, so don't feel like you have to part
ways with it now if you are not fully convinced that it is going to be
worth it.

I see that so far the new features still aren't enough for you and
that's cool. EAGLE's pace of development has increased greatly and it's
not going to take a long time to get the features that have been
promised in.

Like I mentioned on the Autodesk Forums, it is now up to us to earn the
business of our customers by improving EAGLE and adding features that
will compel you to go subscription. That is our goal, and for whatever
it's worth, despite the licensing change, I see EAGLE finally growing
and getting the development that it has long deserved.

The next few months are going to be interesting, and since you'll be
checking in you'll be seeing it.

Hang tight and as always let me know if there's anything else I can do
for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia



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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169700 is a reply to message #169677] Fri, 24 February 2017 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> CadSoft Guest wrote:
>
> One of the nice things about the EAGLE file format (since version 6 at
> least) is that it is easy to read. I've already written a program that
> opens an EAGLE file, reads it and can parse the XML. (I even posted a
> couple of my early experiments
> http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/m/156145/6f8dbdb16391f7c28db5b12f3dbae 997/?srch=python#msg_156145 ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .eaglecentral.ca%2Findex.php%2Fm%2F156145%2F6f8dbdb16391f7c28db5b12f3dbae99 7%2F%3Fsrch%3Dpython%23msg_156145).)
> If anything happens to EAGLE or Autodesk, we'll still be able to access
> our EAGLE files, if only to convert them to some other package.
> --
> EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .eaglecentral.ca) :: Where the EAGLE community meets.
>
Yes, that's a valid point. I see there are a number of Eagle to $other_PCB_package around, but all seem to have some issues, and not do a perfect translation.

I've met this problem many times with other software. Mathematica had some significant changes in version 6, and had a converter to convert files from versions 5 or lower to version 6. In practice it was only partially successful. It would be nice if OpenOffice was 100% compatible with Word files, but in practice it is not.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169701 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 24 February 2017 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
A suggestion that want to get the license of Eagle changed

1) Make a donation to KiCad, via CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research), The minimum donation is 20 Swiss Francs, which is just under $20.

https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6

2) Leave your name - don't make the donation anonymous.

3) Write to the CEO  of Autodesk, saying you are thinking of switching to KiCad, and show you have donated to the KiCad project, but say will stick with Eagle if the license decision is reversed.

Whilst I can see some attractions for a company in having one license model for all products, it is too simplistic to assume that the same model is fit for all, especially if those products are aimed at different market sectors. A license model that is appropriate for software that's going to be sold to large corporations, may well be inappropriate for software that's going to be used by the hobbyist/small business market.

Personally I can't see how this sort of license model is good for anything other than videos, music, games software, or anything else where loss of access is not going to have a major impact.

BTW, if you run Eagle >= 8 in a virtual machine, I suspect you can stop it "phoning home" indefinitely. The program is not going to know what the date is, as long as the clock in the machine is set back before you start the program.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169702 is a reply to message #169701] Fri, 24 February 2017 19:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
David Kirkby wrote on Fri, 24 February 2017 12:07
A suggestion that want to get the license of Eagle changed

Look at the direction Autodesk is going in as a corporation. EAGLE is only a (small) part of that corporation...

If this was EEVBlog, I'd insert "beating a dead horse".
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169703 is a reply to message #169701] Fri, 24 February 2017 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
Are you going to work with unlicensed software as a professional designer? You make your own customers liable in that case.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169705 is a reply to message #169702] Fri, 24 February 2017 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
levafreidin
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2011
Junior Member
     Just make my opinion stronger: they bought the EAGLE to kill the competitions.
How many products disappear after another BIG company, "Microsoft", bought them?
               Lev Freidin.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169706 is a reply to message #169701] Fri, 24 February 2017 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
@David Kirkby:  Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software?  Just curious.

Best regards,

Matt - Autodesk.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169707 is a reply to message #169706] Fri, 24 February 2017 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> @David Kirkby: Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software? Just curious.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt - Autodesk.

Actually I am hopping that someone will do it. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fall-back plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access out work.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169708 is a reply to message #169706] Fri, 24 February 2017 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
levafreidin
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2011
Junior Member
Next phrase *does not* belong to me:
+" Actually I am hoping that someone will do it. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fall-back plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access out work."+
    
        Again, *I did not say it* (sentence above). Why you sent the e-mail to me?

But I have another solution of the problem:
              I  already bought AuloTRAX" (it imports "EAGLE" library and projects) ($49);
              I installed "KiCAD" (free);
              I installed "PCB Artist" (free);
              I install demo version of "DipTrace" (full cost $1200 about).

Next step is to check and select more suitable for me software.
I think "KiCAD" would be most stable and growing, but I have to try.

              Best regards,
                     Lev Freidin, Electronics Engineer.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169709 is a reply to message #169706] Fri, 24 February 2017 23:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 197
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Matt,
have you ever read my posts here?

1) Autodesk sells something Eagle does not yet have, but Autodesk is pushing us to pay a year before it will be developed later in the year.

2) Autodesk pushes us to buy a toy software, because at the end of the license the Eagle falls on a toy version called "free version".

3) Some employees (previously also of Cadsoft) of Autodesk seem to be a liar because they have said something last year,
but now have a complete 180 ° rotated statement, appeased to urge them what Autodesk prescribes.

Matt, did you read my suggestions, the 4 points I posted here in this thread?

I have to take Eagle at the time because a change is much more expensive.
But the software of the competition has already advanced over 15 - 20 years advanced software, which Autodesk wants to catch up in the 21st century.
All extra tools that Eagle provides, such as 3D view, component database, router quality, must be paid in advance at Autodesk, which are already installed as standard in the software.
But.... Eagle has nice functions, but......

I appeal to think seriously about customer-friendliness.
We can also reckon, also understand business mathematics.
I look forward to Eagle V9, V10, V???..... can it be happen?

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169710 is a reply to message #169706] Sat, 25 February 2017 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 24 February 2017 15:05
Best regards,
Matt - Autodesk.

Nice of you to pop back in Matt. Are you going to answer my questions about your claim that Autodesk operates all of these servers?

Over here on EAGLE Central
On your own Autodesk forum

We've had a reply from Element 14 already...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169711 is a reply to message #169706] Sat, 25 February 2017 01:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> @David Kirkby: Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software? Just curious.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt - Autodesk.
Matt,
Given the VERY real risks with the licensing scheme, I would not wish to put any effort into using a product I know could stop working at any minute. I would want a "plan B", if Autodesk folded (less likely), or dropped support for the product (much more likely), I'd want a way out. For what it is worth, there's a huge list of obsoleted Autodesk products at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk#Discontinued_products

So why should I have confidence Eagle would not go the same way?

rbtx99 sums it up with

+*"Actually I am hopping that someone will manage to break the license. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fallback plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access our work."*+

I would feel exactly the same myself.

Luckily I don't have time invested in Eagle, so unlike some I am less bothered about this license. It just strikes me as a crazy one, and I feel very sorry for the people caught up in it all.

For me, KiCad is much more attractive. No vendor lock-in.

Quite honestly Matt, I'm fairly certain IF I wanted to, (which I do not), I could get a free trial of Eagle and use the program indefinitely without paying a penny. But the truth is even if Autodesk offered me 50 years of support on the product, without paying another penny, I would not invest any time in it. It is simply too risky.

If you want to offer me £10.000 if I can prove it could be hacked, then I'd take up the challenge, but otherwise I am not interested. Even if I hacked it, collected the £10,000, I would still not use it.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169712 is a reply to message #169703] Sat, 25 February 2017 01:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Jan Cumps wrote:
>
> Are you going to work with unlicensed software as a professional designer? You make your own customers liable in that case.

No I am not going to work with unlicensed software. KiCad is much more attractive to me.

But if I did use software that could stop working, I'd want a backup, in just the same way as I have a backup in case my hard disk fails.

The expression* +"Don't put all ones eggs in one basket"+* comes tom mind.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169713 is a reply to message #168341] Sat, 25 February 2017 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Clem Martins
Messages: 251
Registered: December 2014
Senior Member
The storm I said was coming has turned into a full fledged hurricane.:0

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169714 is a reply to message #169709] Sat, 25 February 2017 03:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
>
> 3) Some employees (previously also of Cadsoft) of Autodesk seem to be a liar because they have said something last year,
> but now have a complete 180 ° rotated statement, appeased to urge them what Autodesk prescribes.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Gerald
> ----
It is unreasonable to say someone is a liar over this. They probably said it with the best intentions in the world, believing it to be true, but later someone else made a decision different to what they expected.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169747 is a reply to message #169713] Sun, 26 February 2017 08:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
I wonder how long it will take them to realize the truth:

* Yes, the people who actively post on forums about Eagle, and care about licensing, are greatly in the minority.
* Yes, there are many people who will just not care, and buy the subscription.
* However, those people WERE TOLD ABOUT EAGLE by us, the vocal minority. We have a disproportionate impact on the market.

Eagle, and Autodesk, do not have the momentum necessary to succeed without the support of the users, like myself, who recommended Eagle to their colleagues and invested valuable time helping those people learn to use Eagle.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169748 is a reply to message #169649] Sun, 26 February 2017 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Miles
Messages: 36
Registered: July 2007
Member
On 2/23/2017 9:29 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> I hope you're having a good day. Autodesk is not giving up on EAGLE at
> all, that's why so much work . However Autodesk has almost 3 million
> subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model
> works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model.
>

Question for you (or anyone else who knows) -- how many other Autodesk
products, besides EAGLE, use a product-specific file format (whether
documented or not) that no other industry-standard tools are compatible
with?

In other words, how many of those 3 million customers are being held
hostage by Autodesk the way EAGLE users are now, with no alternative but
to continue their subscriptions if they want to keep doing business...
and with no assurance that they'll be able to install and use the
software over the next several years at _any_ price?

-- john
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169764 is a reply to message #168341] Mon, 27 February 2017 13:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 592
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
> Hi All --
>
> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>
> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
....

Matt,

Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit
(source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be
released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,
circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this
thread? However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow
would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle.

Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path
forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle. This would
allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development.

I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go"
would reconsider if this were done.

Just a thought...

- Chuck
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169771 is a reply to message #169764] Mon, 27 February 2017 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Chuck Huber wrote:
>
> On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
>> Hi All --
>>
>> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>>
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
> ...
>
> Matt,
>
> Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit
> (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be
> released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,
> circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this
> thread? However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow
> would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle.
>
> Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path
> forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle. This would
> allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development.
>
> I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go"
> would reconsider if this were done.
>
> Just a thought...
>
> - Chuck
>
>

First of all I double they would want to do that. There is a £200 product that I discontinued and subsequently I was able to get more than £50K additional work to just customise it for a customer. IP always has value even when you discontinue the product. There is always someone who needs it, you just need to find each other.

Secondly, the escrow may not be able to act if Autodesk declares they still have interest in the IP, etc. Even if that takes few months to resolve it can have a huge effect to our business.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169772 is a reply to message #169764] Mon, 27 February 2017 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Chuck Huber wrote:
>
> On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
>> Hi All --
>>
>> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>>
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
> ...
>
> Matt,
>
> Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit
> (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be
> released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive,
> circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this
> thread?
> Just a thought...
>
> - Chuck
I don't think that would happen, as someone else said.

Sun Microsystems decided to release the source code for Solaris, which was really good I felt. But there were bits they had to withhold, as these were licensed from third parties. So OpenSolaris

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris

was released, with some differences from the official Solaris. I still run OpenSoaris  to this say as my main operating system - I'm typing on it now.

drkirkby@hawk:~$ cat /etc/release
                       OpenSolaris Development snv_134 X86
           Copyright 2010 Sun Microsystems, Inc.  All Rights Reserved.
                        Use is subject to license terms.
                             Assembled 01 March 2010

Unfortunately Sun was bought by Oracle, who made no more public releases. There are a number of forks of OpenSolaris in existence though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenIndiana

It would not surprise me if Autodesk had similar problems, so could not realise the code under the GPL even if they wanted to - which I doubt they would anyway.

There are a number of Eagle -> KiCad converters around

Eagle to KiCad made easy | Hackaday (http://hackaday.com/2015/12/27/eagle-to-kicad-made-easy/)
https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad-libs

but I get the feeling none are perfect. But I believe there will be a new impetus for that now. You only have to look on the KiCad forums, and see a number of recent posts (Jan or Fed 2017) about such converters.

One was announced 21 days ago
https://forum.kicad.info/t/eagle-to-kicad-library-converter/5206

Others
https://forum.kicad.info/t/can-you-import-a-schematic-from-eaglecad/543

The second post down here is interesting
https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964

https://forum.kicad.info/t/error-with-converted-eagle-symbol-library/5305

Realistically, you are likely to find far more success moving to an open-source project now, than waiting around to see if Autodesk release the source for Eagle.

It would be interesting to whether KiCad or Eagle are getting the most man-hours spent on the development now. Clearly Autodesk are spending money on Eagle development, but CERN are on KiCad development. Maybe Eagle will improve faster than KiCad, or maybe it will be the other way - I have no idea. I can't imagine there are any KiCad users going to be switching to Eagle, whereas there are a number of Eagle users switching to KiCad, so my guess is that KiCad development will speed up, and Eagle development slow. But as I say, I don't know for sure.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169773 is a reply to message #169764] Mon, 27 February 2017 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow, that they've put enough of it in escrow in order to compile a functional application, that the licensing of the material in escrow is permissive enough, etc. And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years.

Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises. Other solutions either have the code available up front or give you a license that will run eternally as long as you have a compatible operating system.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169781 is a reply to message #169773] Mon, 27 February 2017 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 592
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
On 02/27/2017 11:54 AM, Garrett Mace wrote:
> Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow,

Well, sort of. I've done this in past lives back in the '80s. The
escrow was held by an attorney. On each release, the attorney would
receive the package from the author, and hire an independent expert to
verify that the package could be built. It's really not that big of a
deal to for someone to come in once or twice a year to do the verification.

> And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years.

True.

> Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises.

From the responses so far, it doesn't look like having an escrow would
bring "no-go" customers back.

As for myself, I have two primary objections: The cost, and the
requirement to be beholden to a) another company, and b) a server on the
Internet. There are portions of my ECAD and MCAD work that need to be
done on a computer that never connects to the Internet. This is also
why I don't use Inventor. I believe that Eagle solutions for this are
not forthcoming.

And, no, an escrow of source code would not have satisfied my requirements.

I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible.

Best regards,
- Chuck
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169792 is a reply to message #169781] Tue, 28 February 2017 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 27.02.2017 21:42, Chuck Huber wrote:
> I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible.

A company with 10000 employees and flexible... Yeah sure... But they may
prove me wrong....

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169815 is a reply to message #169577] Wed, 01 March 2017 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans Lederer
Messages: 289
Registered: June 2008
Senior Member
Am 22.02.2017 um 12:50 schrieb rachaelp:
> […] I'm sure Autodesk has plenty of servers spread around the world […]

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/01/aws_s3_outage/ :

> Tuesday's Amazon Web Services mega-outage knocked offline not only websites big and small, by yanking away their backend storage, […]
> […], Autodesk's cloud, […]

But hey, it was only five hours. And maybe you couldn't use Eagle
anyway then because you have a Razer mouse:
https://www.reddit.com/r/razer/comments/5wpk3l/cant_connect_to_razer_synaps e/


(Thanks to fefe! https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a64851a1 )

Hans
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169823 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 01 March 2017 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Future of Eagle...

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/bim-360-glue-forum/bim-360-is-currently-unav ailable-please-try-again-later/td-p/6909972

Best Regards,

Karel
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169834 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 01 March 2017 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify your PCB. So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..." and then a picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog.

Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you back what you paid for your EAGLE license!"
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169836 is a reply to message #169834] Wed, 01 March 2017 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
It's going to work, too. The only reason you don't often see competitors in the same business doing this sort of adversarial marketing: usually companies don't aim a crew-served .50 at their own feet and hold down the trigger.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169838 is a reply to message #169834] Wed, 01 March 2017 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
Altium is not a cure-all.

I use both Eagle and Altium.   When using Altium my employer has a license server where I have to grab a license to use the program.  If I am away from an internet connection and don't have an active license, I am S.O.L,  Sometimes I will be working with a schematic only license, and then need to use the layout tool - and that can also be a PITA.

Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than Eagle.  Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes.

I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will change.  For the forseeable future, I'll continue working in Eagle (7.5) as well as Altium.

Mark

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169839 is a reply to message #169834] Wed, 01 March 2017 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> CadSoft Guest wrote:
>
> Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify
> your PCB. So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..." and then a
> picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog.
>
> Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you
> back what you paid for your EAGLE license!"
>
> --
> EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .eaglecentral.ca) :: Where the EAGLE community meets.
>
Competition in a marketplace is usually a good thing, and it seems the Autodesk has created a bit more competition.

I don't suppose Altium made a serious attempt to attract Eagle customers before, as they knew there was a significant price difference. But Autodesk have introduced a "feature" which Altrium see as something they can exploit.


It is interesting to see the number of people joining the KiCad forum very recently. This post by hippo


h1.      Import project from Eagle (https://forum.kicad.info/t/import-project-from-eagle/5517)
Projects (https://forum.kicad.info/c/projects)
about converting Eagle files to KiCad was made by someone who joined only one day ago. Although it appears he is already running 8.0.

https://forum.kicad.info/t/import-project-from-eagle/5517

I don't think that is a coincidence.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169840 is a reply to message #169838] Wed, 01 March 2017 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Mark Sauerwald wrote on Wed, 01 March 2017 15:54
Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than Eagle.

Yes, there is a reason they use Altium at my day job and would never consider EAGLE.

Quote:
Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes.

Agreed. I tried to do a tiny board in Altium Designer, and just kept thinking I was using a bazooka to hit a tsetse fly...

Quote:
I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will change.

I'm a skeptic; I too prefer the old license, but doubt it will change. In a bittersweet decision, our diy music devices group decided to remove all eagle files from their web sites. I'm now converting my designs to KiCad (and Circuit Studio)...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169842 is a reply to message #169838] Wed, 01 March 2017 23:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
We're used to hardship. I don't think there's ever been a CAD package used by professionals made someone say "You know, this program is an absolute joy to use" (barring some heavy-duty sarcasm).

These software packages are hard to use, and not necessarily by bad developer decisions, but due to the nature of the work that has to be done. It takes significant time to be functional in them, let alone start feeling like an expert. The program gets in the way of your work for a long time as you start to learn it.

An earlier poster said they wouldn't use a cloud or internet-tethered program for serious work even if it was free...or even if the software company PAID them to use it. The reason for this is above. Our time is valuable, and it's a waste of precious weeks and months to learn how to use a program that could be taken away at any moment.

It would be like designing a new product that depended on a part that was already in last-time-buy status. You just made sure that at some point in the near future you're going to have to redesign that product. A cloud-based or internet-tethered CAD package takes away the chance you'll have to spend months becoming skilled in a different CAD package someday, and turns it into a certainty.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169846 is a reply to message #169815] Thu, 02 March 2017 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
Yep, so true. And freezing for 5 hours because the nest thermostat also
didn't control the heater anymore....

Interesting times nowadays...

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169856 is a reply to message #169846] Thu, 02 March 2017 11:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 02 March 2017 01:33
Yep, so true. And freezing for 5 hours because the nest thermostat also didn't control the heater anymore....

Interesting times nowadays...

I'm starting to wonder if I'm part Luddite. I have a swamp cooler on my house, I drive a 1988 Toyota 4x4 with a manual transmission, and I've taken my best photographs with a completely manual Nikkormat.

On the other hand, I'm having solar panels installed, I've got a Raspberry Pi controlling the watering system and I love my Lumia 550XL... LOL!
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169912 is a reply to message #169823] Sun, 05 March 2017 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
Probably the outage was related to this...
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:


Amazon typo knocked websites offline - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39151932 ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ftechnology-39151932)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169914 is a reply to message #169912] Sun, 05 March 2017 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> Amazon typo knocked websites offline - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39151932 ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ftechnology-39151932)

>
Of course with *THEM* this is never going to happen.... Also EAGLE
*never* is going to be subscription...

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169932 is a reply to message #169914] Tue, 07 March 2017 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
Hi,
Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days.
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169933 is a reply to message #169932] Tue, 07 March 2017 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Mine will work offline until the day there are no more computers that are able to run or virtualize the last compatible Mac, Windows, or Linux operating system. For all of our sakes I hope that is more than 14 days in the future, but with asteroids you never know.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169934 is a reply to message #169932] Tue, 07 March 2017 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 07.03.2017 18:23, Ed Robledo wrote:
> Hi,
> Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days.
> Ed

As a reminder, according to murphy's law the 14 day period is over
exactly in the moment the license server is down.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169935 is a reply to message #169932] Tue, 07 March 2017 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Ed Robledo wrote on Tue, 07 March 2017 18:23
Hi,
Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days.
Ed


Just as reminder, EAGLE will work till autodesk decides to pull the plug.
Karel
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169936 is a reply to message #169932] Tue, 07 March 2017 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Ed Robledo wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days.
> Ed

Just as reminder, we were told it would be perpetual license... and those 14 days can easily become 'connect every time' when Autodesk decides.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169943 is a reply to message #169936] Wed, 08 March 2017 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
And they just did it. If you have student licence and Eagle 8.0.3 It wants internet connection each time when you start Eagle control panel. So example when you go to airplane or to bus what goes trough area where is no mobile connection, remember launch it first. When you are on air it is too late. I feel that is time to start study kicad.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169944 is a reply to message #169943] Wed, 08 March 2017 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Burner . wrote:
>
> And they just did it. If you have student licence and Eagle 8.0.3 It wants internet connection each time when you start Eagle control panel. So example when you go to airplane or to bus what goes trough area where is no mobile connection, remember launch it first. When you are on air it is too late. I feel that is time to start study kicad.
Really? If this is indeed true it would be disappointing but I think likely just a mistake to be corrected. I can't even see v8.0.3 available anywhere so maybe they realised and pulled it already?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169948 is a reply to message #169943] Wed, 08 March 2017 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
*This is +false+ and I'm not sure where youre getting this information.  Have you tested this or you're just making assumptions?  Is this your first post on the forum?  If so, perhaps you can test things before making unsubstantiated claims on the forums so we dont have misdirection here.  Thanks! *

FWIW, it rolls over to freeware when you are outside of the 14-day window but the token persists for educational version when you are offline.  If you log in on an airplane, the token you have would continue to work.  In fact, the educational version is a premium license (which is never was in the past...that cost $$$ in the past).  The software will never stop working by virtue of going offline.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169949 is a reply to message #169948] Wed, 08 March 2017 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 17:28
*This is +false+ and I'm not sure where youre getting this information.  Have you tested this or you're just making assumptions?  Is this your first post on the forum?  If so, perhaps you can test things before making unsubstantiated claims on the forums so we dont have misdirection here.  Thanks! *


Hi Matt, if I remember well, you are the person who said that Eagle shouldn't go subscription.
Were you just making an unsubstantiated claim? This is +false+



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169950 is a reply to message #169948] Wed, 08 March 2017 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 09:28
*This is +false+ and I'm not sure where youre getting this information.

So Matt, why do you go away for a while, then swoop in to make statements like this, then disappear again? (Your last post here is from February 24.) You still haven't answered my questions about who runs these servers, and as far as I know, you still haven't given James a direct answer to his last message. You seem to be quite selective in what you respond to.

I'm starting to wonder if you're a douche in real life, since from my perspective, you're sure coming across as one here...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169956 is a reply to message #169948] Wed, 08 March 2017 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
I tested it. Several times, I also try install it again, I try open it different ways and all times same result. Without connection it asks to connect network first and press retry. Anyway that retry button does not work. When I am on internet there is no problem at all. I can just open it and it works. BUT if I close Control Panel and try open it without network it is each time same thing. Because looks that you have some kind trust issues with first posters I also attach screen capture. And BTW I find that forum because I try find solution to that problem. So Matt I totally understand that you want to be first, but it does not make you a president even you claim that it is false news.
[eagle.png]

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169958 is a reply to message #169956] Wed, 08 March 2017 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 3/8/2017 5:55 PM, Burner . wrote:
> I tested it. Several times, I also try install it again, I try open it different ways and all times same result. Without connection it asks to connect network first and press retry. Anyway that retry button does not work. When I am on internet there is no problem at all. I can just open it and it works. BUT if I close Control Panel and try open it without network it is each time same thing. Because looks that you have some kind trust issues with first posters I also attach screen capture. And BTW I find that forum because I try find solution to that problem. So Matt I totally understand that you want to be first, but it does not make you a president even you claim that it is false news.
> [eagle.png]
>
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>

Hi Burner,

What operating system are you working with? Are you on Linux?
On Linux, EAGLE currently has difficulty with Mac addresses when you are
not connected through an Ethernet cable. This is a known issue and we
are looking onto it.

If you are not on linux, please e-mail me directly
support@cadsoftusa.com and we'll look into it some more.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169962 is a reply to message #169949] Thu, 09 March 2017 03:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
This isnt correct. I stated we hadn't planned to do this and it wasn't a priority at the time however we may do it in the future.  Paraphrasing I believe I'd said "we weren't planning this however could I say we never would?  No.  But it wasn't a priority."  So you're omitting an important piece of the overall story.  We made the call to do this with version 8.  So I'd appreciate if it was characterized as though Id been dishonest.  Thanks!

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169963 is a reply to message #169950] Thu, 09 March 2017 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
I'd corrected an innacuracy and I'll thank you for not trolling another user (myself included) and reducing this to a name calling exercise.

If you want to know more about me and what I get up to, checkout my hackaday profile (Hackaday.com/matt). When it's not building OSHW stuff or dropping in here when I can,  I'm working on EAGLE...if indeed your curious what Im up to. 

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169964 is a reply to message #169956] Thu, 09 March 2017 04:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
You have to connect to the network the first time.  Once you do this, the SW will run in freeware mode even if the license 'lapses'.  The student version also requires that you login at least one time.  If you just want to install the freeware, you still need an account and you need to login at least one time.  If you change mac address, this may also require you to log in.  If you want to contact support, they'll help you get this sorted.  If it is not working at all, then you likely have a proxy issue or you are switching mac addresses, etc. but this shouldn't occur after the first time you login.  This hasn't been reported with people that have logged in already so it's something for us to look into.  This would be something for support to figure out and if we need to fix something, we will do our best to get it into the next build.

Cheers,
mb

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169965 is a reply to message #169956] Thu, 09 March 2017 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
BTW, if you close that window, what happens?  Does eagle run at all?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169966 is a reply to message #169962] Thu, 09 March 2017 04:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Your defense after the revealing of the subscription model was that all of Autodesk's software was actively moving to subscription, and it was the wave of the future since everyone was doing it. But those reasons were true at the time you said you weren't planning on a subscription model. So we incorrectly thought that Eagle was being treated differently than the rest of Autodesk's products. Based on the timeline, the idea of moving to subscription had to be actively discussed around then...otherwise how would you have had the time to integrate the code for the new licensing, create all the new websites and documentation, integrate the new SKU into Autodesk's accounting system, and test everything? Plus make a couple of small changes to the schematic and PCB layout behavior?

Now, if the move to subscription was being discussed without your involvement, we could understand your statement reassuring us that subscription was not on the road map. But if that's true, it must have sucked to have that decision handed to you without your input or even asking current customers about the possibility.

I will give you credit, ever since that statement about subscription not being planned (but maybe someday), you simply just didn't answer direct questions about whether subscription was being planned. So it's not like you lied at all, you just made a reassuring statement with a loophole you could use, and then hid what you were actually doing. That's way better than being lied to as other claim above, but strangely it feels much the same.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169967 is a reply to message #169966] Thu, 09 March 2017 04:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
Thanks Garrett.  I can appreciate what everyone's feeling and I can only add that it wasn't anything as sinister as "we had a master plan" or that we hoped to use misdirection to mislead you or anyone else.  We just hadn't thought much about it at the time when we first closed on the acquisition and now that we're firing on all cylinders in development, we made the move.  We timed this with version 8 because that's when we started getting up to speed on the code base an the CI/CD model was in our sights.  Now that it's happened, it isn't a direction we're going to change, however it's coming with a massive uptick in investment in development that will yield some pretty amazing new technology.   This hopefully doesn't get lost in the weeds.  Continuous deployment is a commitment we have to make with all Autodesk tools when we move to subscription and this is happening.  That release cycle is gaining speed very fast.  (I wasn't kidding about investment in routing, in ECAD<>MCAD or library improvements, etc.)  We'll continue to invest in this (big $$) and as people follow EAGLE development, it's incumbent on us to bring the "wishlist" to life.  We're not in this for the short-game.  This is a long term investment in the future of electronic product development.

Best regards.
Matt

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169968 is a reply to message #169967] Thu, 09 March 2017 04:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
I understand, I really do. I recognize that you're dedicated to making this a good product. However, it's just not for me and many of the past customers of Eagle, or for EE professionals. It's for someone else that Autodesk believes is a larger, more lucrative market.

And honestly, the only reason we're in here and upset is because we cared. But I don't know what the point is anymore. If you waved a magic wand and a permanent license was available, and if the free version worked as a viewer with zero internet requirement to install, would I re-invest?

*The punchbowl has already been turded.* We're all looking at it just floating there. And you're saying that the next party over also has a turd in the punchbowl but that's not important, you're going to the store right now to get top-shelf vodka and fruit juice, you're going to pour it all over the top of the turd and the punch will be only the fruitiest, most alcoholic bowl of punch we've ever seen. Seriously great punch.

But if I get what I want, and you fish out the turd, am I going line up for a drink? No. Damage is already done. Trust is gone.

It's been a great run, Eagle. I'll use my old copy until it doesn't work, or until I learn enough about other tools to like them more.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169970 is a reply to message #169958] Thu, 09 March 2017 05:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
Windows 10 64 bit. At earlier post I claim that I use 8.0.3 it is typo. It is 8.0.2

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169971 is a reply to message #169965] Thu, 09 March 2017 05:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
Nope, It just get closed. Also if I connect to net when that window is already open and press that refresh button nothing happens. Only way to get that running is that computer needs to be connected to internet when I launch software. If I connect it when that windows is already open I need close and reopen eagle to get it work. I can close & open files via eagle control panel. Anyway if I example open file via explorer and it will start new instance of control panel it will not open if computer is not at net.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169973 is a reply to message #169963] Thu, 09 March 2017 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Pearce
Messages: 470
Registered: September 2012
Senior Member
On 09/03/17 03:45, Matt Berggren wrote:
> I'd corrected an innacuracy

No, you hadn't.

Sorry, Matt, I can understand that you feel frustrated by the number of
people who took your poorly worded statement many months ago at face
value and now hate you with a vengeance, but your tone on here has been
consistently rude and argumentative. In this case, you ACCUSED HIM OF
LYING. That is NOT the same as correcting and inaccuracy. You need to
sound less like a troll yourself before accusing anyone else of trolling.

Now I shall once more remove myself from this pointless argument.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169974 is a reply to message #169971] Thu, 09 March 2017 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Romanyszyn
Messages: 856
Registered: December 2004
Senior Member
On 03/09/2017 12:50 AM, Burner . wrote:
> Nope, It just get closed. Also if I connect to net when that window is already open and press that refresh button nothing happens. Only way to get that running is that computer needs to be connected to internet when I launch software. If I connect it when that windows is already open I need close and reopen eagle to get it work. I can close & open files via eagle control panel. Anyway if I example open file via explorer and it will start new instance of control panel it will not open if computer is not at net.
>
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>
If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It
also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi.
Paul
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169977 is a reply to message #169974] Thu, 09 March 2017 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 197
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
> CadSoft Guest wrote:
>
> Re: Eagle v8 licensing... (/message/217922/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#217922)
>
> If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It
> also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi.
> Paul
>
Hi Paul,

ähm ??? what does mac with Ethernet?? - they are two pair of shoes.
The MAC-address is "fix"(of course changeable register entry) in the hardware, Ethernet is a protocol.

If you have no connection firstly you have no protocol or no cable connection, and then can happen also missing a MAC.
But the MAC is coming with the manufactured hardware.
-> If you say "if you don't have Ethernet, you have no MAC" - then i suggest that there was a hack attack. ;)

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169978 is a reply to message #169974] Thu, 09 March 2017 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
>>
> If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It
> also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi.
> Paul
>
That can explain it.
Anyway I see that more like bug than feature then. Modern Windows 10 machines jump interfaces up and down quite lot depending do you have cable, wifi or vpn connected. If that software licence system use only active interface mac or prefer it it is not good software design. Yes it can be feature but so brain dead one that in perspective of users it is just badly broken software.
Good licencing modules are base of software vendor business. Bad ones are just way to get rid of customers and destroy business. I know that cad soft had have poor ones (flexlm) at their softwares what are at monopoly position in business.  Anyway in PCB cad market they are not at monopoly position so enforcing customers to poor technology can lead just mass escape of customers.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169979 is a reply to message #169963] Thu, 09 March 2017 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 20:45
I'd corrected an innacuracy and I'll thank you for not trolling another user (myself included) and reducing this to a name calling exercise.

So, the point remains. Why will you not answer my and/or some other people's questions? As I said, you seem to be very selective about what you respond to, and you are reinforcing it with this very message.

BTW, you brought the subject up, I asked you to cite your sources, you've ignored me, I called you out. That is not trolling.

Quote:
If you want to know more about me and what I get up to, checkout my hackaday profile (Hackaday.com/matt). When it's not building OSHW stuff or dropping in here when I can,  I'm working on EAGLE...if indeed your curious what Im up to.

I *don't* care about what you "get up to" other than how it affects EAGLE. You could be some global humanitarian and it still wouldn't change the perception of how you interact with us here. Now I have to admit "dropping in here when [you] can" makes you seem more like a seagull than a douche. You lectured me about this community in a past message, but I really believe it's you who is not a part of the community. You can "correct an inaccuracy" of my perception by answering my questions directly...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169980 is a reply to message #169978] Thu, 09 March 2017 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 197
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
YES - That's the point! also what i meant above.
The point of the disaster is that they not listening the costumers.
And if so, they misinterpret the customers "the customers are so aggressive to me..."...
No we are not aggressive we are a little bit annoyed about the strong method from Autodesk.
"pay first today and then after one year you can get what you paid for..!"
-> A bag with fleas inside.

Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169981 is a reply to message #169978] Thu, 09 March 2017 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 592
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/09/2017 08:50 AM, Burner . wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2069097598.351489067461156.JavaMail.jive@e14-cr-vp-appj8-04.premierfarnell.net"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It
also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi.
Paul

</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">That can explain it.
Anyway I see that more like bug than feature then. Modern Windows 10 machines jump interfaces up and down quite lot depending do you have cable, wifi or vpn connected. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC
address?<br>
<br>
Oh... wait, I see.  Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a
cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface),
or vpn (yet another interface).   Depending on what you're using at
the time, the MAC address for the <i>active</i> connection may be
different than what it was for a <i>previous</i> connection.<br>
<br>
As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then
perhaps you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not
necessarily the wrong ECAD package.  Something to consider, anyway.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2069097598.351489067461156.JavaMail.jive@e14-cr-vp-appj8-04.premierfarnell.net"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If that software licence system use only active interface mac or prefer it it is not good software design. Yes it can be feature but so brain dead one that in perspective of users it is just badly broken software. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Something that doesn't change on-the-fly is the disk ID on which the
software is installed, or the inode number.  Granted, this does
change with a disk swap, or restore from backups, so a revalidating
of the license would be required in those instances.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2069097598.351489067461156.JavaMail.jive@e14-cr-vp-appj8-04.premierfarnell.net"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Anyway in PCB cad market they are not at monopoly position so enforcing customers to poor technology can lead just mass escape of customers.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well, the loss of customers was predicable.  I'm sure they had
similar loss when they moved other products to subscription only.<br>
<br>
I'm also sure Autodesk considered the fiasco encountered when
Cadsoft moved to flexlm with v7.0 and considered receiving a similar
retort when they decided to acquire Cadsoft.  Personally, I believe
Autodesk assumed that they would move to a subscription model well
before the acquisition - that's their business model.  They'd been
through the perpetual to subscription transition for most of their
other products and assumed that the same would occur with Eagle. 
Their past experiences with this turned out well for their revenue
stream (which means that it did NOT lower the cost to customers),
and the experience will turn out well for them with Cadsoft.<br>
<br>
The two primary problems I have with subscriptions are:<br>
<ul>
<li>My intellectual property is essentially being held hostage. 
It requires that I have an active paid subscription to maintain
designs, and<br>
</li>
<li>I have to have a connection to the Internet in order for the
software to validate the license.  This precludes use of Eagle
in any environment that does not have a connection to the
Internet.</li>
</ul>
Those willing to accept a subscription model will see a rapid
delivery of bug fixes and new features, since additional development
resources can be dedicated to this effort.  I would assume that Matt
is pretty much heading this up.  What developer wouldn't be happy
with more funds available for development?  This can purchase higher
quality software engineers, more floor space, not to mention the
long wish list being tackled head-on and the integration with the
existing MCAD products offered by Autodesk.  The downside to a
subscription model has been well voiced in this forum.<br>
<br>
I can see where this is good, very good for Eagle.  It's really too
bad that I won't be able to share the results of their efforts.<br>
<br>
Matt, I sincerely hope you enjoy the adventure ahead.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
    - Chuck<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169990 is a reply to message #169981] Thu, 09 March 2017 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tapio Haapala
Messages: 6
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
> I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address?
>
> Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a
> cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or
> vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the
> time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than
> what it was for a /previous/ connection.
>
> As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps
> you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong
> ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway.
I think these days it is quite basic thing that some days you use your computer at wired connection and some times you have only wifi. Some times you do not have neither. Anyway if licence manager take identification from active NIC MAC it means that this whole 14 day heard beat thing is useless. Because when you drop your wifi to offline it is not active card any more and it will disable licence. Do they really thing that users will carry dummy wifi AP without uplink with them for workaround =)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170004 is a reply to message #169990] Fri, 10 March 2017 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 592
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
On 03/09/2017 03:22 PM, Burner . wrote:
>> I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address?
>>
>> Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a
>> cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or
>> vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the
>> time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than
>> what it was for a /previous/ connection.
>>
>> As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps
>> you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong
>> ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway.
> I think these days it is quite basic thing that some days you use your computer at wired connection and some times you have only wifi. Some times you do not have neither. Anyway if licence manager take identification from active NIC MAC it means that this whole 14 day heard beat thing is useless. Because when you drop your wifi to offline it is not active card any more and it will disable licence. Do they really thing that users will carry dummy wifi AP without uplink with them for workaround =)

Activity as you describe is very true. As soon as someone goes from
hardline to WiFi, they could be toast.

Perhaps this would be a good one to hand off to support? What do you
say, Jorge? Are you able to verify this?

I can't complain too much since I don't have a dog in this race for
other reasons.

Best regards,
- Chuck
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170005 is a reply to message #170004] Fri, 10 March 2017 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> Activity as you describe is very true. As soon as someone goes from
> hardline to WiFi, they could be toast.
>
> Perhaps this would be a good one to hand off to support? What do you
> say, Jorge? Are you able to verify this?
>
> I can't complain too much since I don't have a dog in this race for
> other reasons.
>
> Best regards,
> - Chuck
>

Hey Chuck,

To be perfectly honest, I wish you did have a dog in this race. I've
always appreciated your participation on the forums and your insights,
but anyway that's a different matter.

This situation has been observed under linux and it is something that is
being looked into actively. Haven't heard of it on Windows I'll go ahead
and update the report we have on this issue.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170006 is a reply to message #170005] Fri, 10 March 2017 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Garrett Mace
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
If I have to pay a certain amount every month to keep it alive, don't know if it'll be around 5-10-15 years in the future (but certainly not forever), have to accept its somewhat awkward and silly nature, and have to clean up after its accidents occasionally, I'll just go get a real dog.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170067 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 16 March 2017 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andy Crofts[1]
Messages: 1
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
Horses for courses, I guess....
I used eagle free to design and test the prototype, then buy the low-cost commercial version to produce the production version.
I could have shrunk the board a lot by going 4-layer, but it didn't warrant the jump in price.
Now, if I understand correctly, I'll just need a 1-month subscription to convert the board to 4-layer, at 15 bucks! I could easily do it in a month...
Has eagle shot themselves in the foot?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170072 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 17 March 2017 07:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kes Calhoun
Messages: 2
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
I'm disabled, but occasionally can get some extra pocket money by selling a board. So, to keep to the license agreement, I purchased a $70 license that allows me to use it for commercial purposes. That $70 is a fixed cost, I can budget it, I can work around it, if I needed, I could hold off on an upgrade for a few months until I could afford it. The new license at $100/year, however, is not worth it. Period. The new features don't justify the significant increase in price, and the month-by-month price starts getting significantly more expensive after month 5. Lowering standard to $5/month, I'd consider it, but at $15/month, no way.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170107 is a reply to message #170067] Mon, 20 March 2017 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> Andy Crofts wrote:
>
> Horses for courses, I guess....
> I used eagle free to design and test the prototype, then buy the low-cost commercial version to produce the production version.
> I could have shrunk the board a lot by going 4-layer, but it didn't warrant the jump in price.
> Now, if I understand correctly, I'll just need a 1-month subscription to convert the board to 4-layer, at 15 bucks! I could easily do it in a month...
> Has eagle shot themselves in the foot?
Hi Andy,
No, this is the idea, give better option to the user. Instead of having to make a upfront a large investment, you now have a commercial grade use of a program for the time you need it.  The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model.
Best Regards,
Ed Robledo
Support Specialist
Autodesk, Inc.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170109 is a reply to message #170107] Mon, 20 March 2017 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Ed Robledo wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
> No, this is the idea, give better option to the user. Instead of having to make a upfront a large investment, you now have a commercial grade use of a program for the time you need it. The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model.
> Best Regards,
> Ed Robledo
> Support Specialist
> Autodesk, Inc.

No, the idea of the subscription is to get more revenue for Autodesk. If your concern was about what the customers want then you would offer the perpetual license that everyone is asking for. You could offer it in parallel with the subscription but you are not interested in doing so.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170111 is a reply to message #170107] Tue, 21 March 2017 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kes Calhoun
Messages: 2
Registered: March 2017
Junior Member
Still more expensive than the old $70 commercial license after just five months. Still more expensive after a year for the maker license. This is pretty significant for a number of people, and Autodesk's attitude to the criticism is why I'm going to keep using my old version of eagle until I make the jump to KiCad. The value proposition is just not there, and Autodesk's hard press for this sales model is real off-putting.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170112 is a reply to message #170107] Tue, 21 March 2017 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 20.03.2017 um 17:09 schrieb Ed Robledo:
> The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model.

Exactly. The whole idea is that we end up with nothing but a viewer,
after throwing away whatever amount of money. Do you really expect us
loving it?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170113 is a reply to message #170112] Tue, 21 March 2017 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1340
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 21.03.2017 09:57, René König wrote:
> Am 20.03.2017 um 17:09 schrieb Ed Robledo:
>> The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model.
>
> Exactly. The whole idea is that we end up with nothing but a viewer,
> after throwing away whatever amount of money. Do you really expect us
> loving it?

I think Autocad got it now. Only they will know if their new business
model works with Eagle, and if they are able to earn money on it. If
not, I am sure we will hear the signs in a year or two.

Personally I agree that the value proposition is not there, and will
take a while before it gets there. I have made my own list of features I
would like Eagle to be able to see in a future version, and when I look
at it from above, those new features will become very expensive.

Maybe they could have offered a signigicant premium to existing 7.7
users to catch us. A 50% discount for a year is not attractive enough to
sign up to a payment plan with an unknown future.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170122 is a reply to message #168341] Tue, 21 March 2017 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
COMPACT
Messages: 50
Registered: May 2013
Member
I just wish that EAGLE had a cheap licence for a maximum limit of 6" x 11" for two sided PCBs such as vintage S-100 boards.
The low density of old SSI (Small Scale Integration) ICs doesn't allow these designs on very small boards.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170123 is a reply to message #170122] Tue, 21 March 2017 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> COMPACT wrote:
>
> I just wish that EAGLE had a cheap licence for a maximum limit of 6" x 11" for two sided PCBs such as vintage S-100 boards.
> The low density of old SSI (Small Scale Integration) ICs doesn't allow these designs on very small boards.
Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done.
Ed Robledo
Global Support Specialist
Autodesk, Inc.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170124 is a reply to message #170123] Tue, 21 March 2017 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Ed Robledo wrote:
> Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done.

That reply shows how disconnected Autodesk is with how engineers work. Just today I opened an EAGLE board I designed last September to modify a component value that was deemed necessary. With your licensing model I need a month subscription just to update such minor things. If I don't update the board immediate then the information get scattered around and can be lost/missed. Really, EVERYTHING about the subscription license is detrimental to my work and workflow.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170125 is a reply to message #170124] Tue, 21 March 2017 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
COMPACT
Messages: 50
Registered: May 2013
Member
Likewise for me and a lot of other parties.
Also the machine being used is deliberately isolated and not network connected.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170126 is a reply to message #170124] Tue, 21 March 2017 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Fecht
Messages: 118
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
rbtx99 schrieb:
>> Ed Robledo wrote:
>> Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done.
>
> That reply shows how disconnected Autodesk is with how engineers work.

Full acknowledge to this statement from me!

Andreas
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #170128 is a reply to message #170126] Wed, 22 March 2017 01:10 Go to previous message
COMPACT
Messages: 50
Registered: May 2013
Member
Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.
[Manual PCB Layout]

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