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Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168341] Wed, 18 January 2017 19:26 Go to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
Hi All --

Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.  Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  ;)

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. 

Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.

Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data".  Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.  And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data.  If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion.  Again, not helpful.  (Read:  strategy = doomed).

+"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?  What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"+

So here's the deal...We can do better here.  So we will.  +Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on+ *without need of internet connection* *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place):  *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. 

*Caveat:*  to install an update, +you will need to login+.  The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout.  Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos!  ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks.  When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.

Point being, we can do the freeware better.  So we will. 

Hope this is clear.  Let us know if you have questions!

Best regards,

Matt Berggren
Director - Autodesk
@technolomaniac
hackaday.io/matt

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168342 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 18 January 2017 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 18.01.2017 um 20:26 schrieb Matt Berggren:
> Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine.

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our
machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168343 is a reply to message #168342] Wed, 18 January 2017 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our
> machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

Yep. I could live with this "subscription" model, when it would look like:

You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as
it was before with the old system.

For each new release while still under subsciption, you can download a
new license key/installation code.

If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest
installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever
and also reinstall whenenver necessary.

No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can
download the latest license file/install code.

I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to
run on my computer.

I bought it I own it (the license).

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168344 is a reply to message #168343] Wed, 18 January 2017 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
Hi Markus -

Thanks for your reply...Let me take a swing at this:

* But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

Yes you do.  You have the freeware version and if you commit to the subscription version for some period of time (a month, a year), you will have all of the editing features enabled for all layers (whilst ensuring you get everything new that comes down the line like obstacle avoidance in routing, push and shove routing, better hierarchy, better design reuse, improved library editing, etc).  There's of course a quid pro quo:  just as you are subscribing to the product and betting on us, we need to be transparent about what we're adding and are incentivized or rather: obliged, to continue to deliver those capabilities which grow alongside the changing industry.  Point being, if you need to open a file, you always have the free version to fall back on.  If you need to edit, you only pay for what you need when you need it, and when you no longer need to, you can disable your subscription and save the single, monolithic price of a piece of perpetual SW.

* You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system.

Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway?  When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve which sounds like a perpetual license.

Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days, having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development, whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools.  The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW to continue to develop the tools (you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc). 

We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it.  A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer license for education *for free*, we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands of more people at a lower price point.  An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release cycle, the product cost came down $150...if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership!

     For each new release while still under subscription, you can download a
     new license key/installation code.

     If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest
     installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever
     and also reinstall whenenver necessary.

And if you were on Monthly?  If you were on yearly?  Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear.

     No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can
     download the latest license file/install code.

     I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to
     run on my computer.

In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less.  Sure, you have to sign in.  But you never lose your right to view data.

Hope that is clear!

Best regards,

Matt
Autodesk.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168345 is a reply to message #168344] Wed, 18 January 2017 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> * You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system.
>
> Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway?

Yes monthly was not chosen very clever here. From the speed of
development in the history of CadSoft, I was used to spending ~500€
every 2-3 years or so on an update (we are a non-profit organisation).

I got my license key/installation code and could install the product on
any machine in lab, office, laptop, homeoffice, wherever I need to have
it, fire it up, runs. (We have the required number of licenses)

No Internet needed, FlexLM drama etc.

If the computer goes bonkers, reinstall, put license key, works (doesn't
matter where. We do field campaigns on ships, rain forrest, whatever.
Internet not always available.).

If I'm at some point unsatisfied with how the product evolves, I can
just stay at this revision, that most likely will still work fine for a
long time maybe even with the last operating system anyone will need
(Win10).

When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve
which sounds like a perpetual license.

I guess you are correct.
>
> Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days,

Yes and that is exactly the reason why im still running Windows 7 and
Office 2010. Activate once, keeps running. If stuff breaks down in the
middle of nowhere its already getting tricky (I guess it runs 30 days
without being activated)

> having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development

And who is protecting *my* investment in the product the last 15 years
by not offering a non-permanent license anymore? All my efforts I put
into libraries and such? I even paid for a V7 license to support the
development of the product and actually till today do my designs in V6.6.

, whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools.

I still wait for the features promised to be in V7 already...

The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both
the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW
to continue to develop the tools
(you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all
based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc).

Yeah you buy it, but you own it at least. If you see at some point noone
is listening to the customer base and the features you lack are not
comeing, you just don't buy the next upgrade,
*but you still have a functional Software and not a nice file viewer*
>
> We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it.

I still think the 1650 price tag is in the range of what competitors are
asking for their annual "subscription/maintenance" however you name it.
As written above, I can plan on spending a fixed amount over a certain
range.

A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with
a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer
license for education *for free*,

I didn't ask for a free 6 layer version, I was fine with the reduced
price for Educational use. I will not complain though. Just send
everyone that qualifies for it a free registration code and things are
fine :-)

we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands
of more people at a lower price point.
An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release
cycle, the product cost came down $150...
if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to
market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership!

As I said I have no problem with the pricing scheme as it was, I have a
problem with all this online login activation blahfoo and that I don't
have a fully functional, reinstallable software after subscription runs out.

Why don't you combine both models and let the users decide? If the
software is installed via the classical method with
licensefile/installationcode it's possible and just works.

If the user wants to upgrade to next major release, he pays the upgrade
price and its fine. If not he can be happy with his old version.

And if one wants to rent the software because it's cheaper for his
purposes he can let EAGLE login to his autodesk subcription every 14
days and be happy too.

I bet 90% of the community prefer the first scenario.

> And if you were on Monthly? If you were on yearly? Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear.

Yeah I think more in "long term subscription" like a year or 3 years or so.

> In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less. Sure, you have to sign in.
> But you never lose your right to view data.

Yes but the right to work with the software :-)

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168346 is a reply to message #168345] Thu, 19 January 2017 00:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
Of course it does take big money to pay good programmers/engineers and staff, Autodesk has expenses to cover & they'd like to make more than bank interest profit off of their investment--this revenue simply must be supplied by Eagle users.

Here is part of an old 'net post regarding upgrades (From James Morrison):

2) And you can upgrade and only pay the difference (exception upgrade from
light). That fact alone will save $1000's if you have plans to scale.
CadSoft doesn't advertise this enough, IMHO. Upgrades are a very minimum
cost
. The highest license cost $280 to upgrade to EAGLE 5. A paid upgrade
cycle is about 3 years. Currently full new license is about $1500US. So
all in all it is quite reasonable for what you get.


7) Free support for life. If you pay for a real license that includes
phone support. And it's actually pretty good. And an involved community
existed for further support.


So for the current Eagle users who have already invested in Eagle over the years, what will be their upgrade costs now? Certainly a savings or discount over those who have not been users. This code be implemented as a one-time discount code--maybe that will spur some to stay on the ship.

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168347 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rickb
Messages: 16
Registered: March 2016
Location: Junction City, OR USA
Junior Member
Matt Berggren said in his blog:


"What about the $169, 6-Layer Make License?

The $169 non-commercial Maker license lives on and will continue to live on for the foreseeable future. This is a great tool for people requiring that extra bit of horsepower for their personal projects!
"

I purchased this last year with the expectation of upgrading to the next major version, but I see no mention of it on the Autodesk website.

Details please.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168354 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Glenn Jones
Messages: 77
Registered: January 2005
Member
Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the
software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous
versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't
see the words upgrade used anywhere.

I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route.
They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly
subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a
second year.

Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers?

Glenn


On 1/18/2017 2:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
> Hi All --
>
> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>
> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. <Insert revolt here> ;)
>
> WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.
>
> Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful.
>
> Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed).
>
> +"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"+
>
> So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. +Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on+ *without need of internet connection* *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.
>
> *Caveat:* to install an update, +you will need to login+. The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout. Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos! ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks. When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes.
>
> Point being, we can do the freeware better. So we will.
>
> Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt Berggren
> Director - Autodesk
> @technolomaniac
> hackaday.io/matt
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> https://www.element14.com/community/message/213345
>
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168356 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Matt Berggren schrieb:

> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.

You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:
one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as
before: you get a key, you own the software.)

Tilmann
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168357 is a reply to message #168344] Thu, 19 January 2017 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Matt Berggren schrieb:

> Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days
Their subscription models are definitely keeping me from ever using that
software.

Just because others are doing it wrong, it's not the right way.

Tilmann
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168358 is a reply to message #168356] Thu, 19 January 2017 09:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 09:19, Tilmann Reh wrote:
> Matt Berggren schrieb:
>
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
> OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.
>
> You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:
> one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as
> before: you get a key, you own the software.)
>
> Tilmann
>

Yep, thats what I suggested. And for me also the only option.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168360 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi Matt,

I already had my most pressing concern answered to my satisfaction by Jorge which was relating to still being able to run EAGLE on multiple machines as I need to run it up across at least 3 different machines in my lab, but it seems I can still do that so all is good there.

If I was pressed on the subscription issue, I would say that I do much prefer to just buy the software outright, but if subscription is the only way from now on then so be it, I will deal. Having to activate the license with an Autodesk account isn't really something that will often be an issue for me as my machines are always on the internet but I can see why others my find this more problematic. I do understand why you are changing it, but I think it's a very sensitive subject for a lot of people though because of the debacle with the licensing when v7 was first released, so any changes in this area are going to come under a lot of scrutiny from the loyal EAGLE user base who stuck with CadSoft previously. I do wonder if it would be possible to satisfy the need for a permanent license which doesn't expire within your new licensing system though? How about the following as licensing options?

1) Free license. Activate initially and lasts forever. Upgrading to new versions would simply require a one time server activation each time they upgraded.

2) Monthly license. Activate at start of month. Software will run for 1 calendar month and then attempt to re-activate with the server. Autodesk account could be set up to either auto renew or a one off payment requiring a new purchase, this would ensure people didn't buy another month without realising they would be doing so, or forgetting to cancel a direct debit. This is one of my issues with monthly subscription software, it's easy to forget to cancel the subscription and that can be annoying. Upgrades to new versions will be accessible so long as a valid subscription still exists and as per free would require activating with the server.

3) 1/2/3 Year licenses. As per monthly but for longer periods of time. Full access to any upgrades within this period as per the monthly license. At the end of the 1/2/3 year period it could be possible to offer to either a) take out another subscription, b) cancel any direct debits (if a one was set up) and discontinue use, or c) Make an additional payment to convert the longer term fixed period licenses to permanent licenses so people could continue at their current version (or versions within the same release version) indefinitely. See below.

4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment.

I think all of these could be covered by the Autodesk licensing system, hopefully without too much difficulty and without conflicting with the objectives of Autodesk, and I think they might satisfy most of what people would require. I don't think you'd have to have a strange hybrid of the old and new licensing systems within the one piece of software....

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168361 is a reply to message #168360] Thu, 19 January 2017 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:07

4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment.


Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older versions.
No need to activate again when you replace your computer.
What if they pull the plug from the activation server?

The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON
to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a pirated & patched copy will
appear on the internet/torrents.
As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but will not stop piracy.

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168362 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26

WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. 

Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.  As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all.  We know this.  We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.  To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model.  Not helpful.



Hi Matt,

We don't know what will happen in the future with respect to licensing and activations for Eagle, and its overall direction.

Don't forget that these were the same assurances that companies gave to people when they sold DRM'ed music files. After all, it's impossible that a company like Microsoft would ever shut down any of its authorisation servers? Remember what happened there?

I've been using Eagle for more than a decade. Some folks on this list for twice that. On long timescales none of us, not even anyone at Autodesk, can predict how the CAD and business landscape will change, and priorities shift.

I know you're trying to keep things lighthearted, but I'm concerned that with your talk of mountain bases and alien invasions that you don't truly grasp the probabilities and the stakes here.

In the longer term there is the potential for Eagle to be replaced with another product, or Autodesk to run into serious difficulty (it can happen to ANY company. Remember Nokia? Yahoo? Autodesk is a small company by comparison). There is also the potential for Eagle to stop supporting a particular platform, and so it becomes impossible activate even a previously released version of Eagle.

In the shorter term there are very real risks associated with phone-home licensing. All of the following I have experienced with such schemes in the past:

* Internet connectivity issues at my end
* License server downtime
* System changes my end that cause the license check to fail

Now we may all have live with these risks and try to manage them as well as possible. But please understand that these are all real possibilities, with potentially serious consequences. They are not the preserve of people trecking to remote places. Indeed just visiting a factory can be a situation with limited connectivity and incredibly time-sensitive need to access board designs.

Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26

So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good.  You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. 


This might seem like a trivial detail but I think it has big consequences.

It is important that it be possible to use Eagle in at least read-only mode after installation without pinging Autodesk servers.

As I've outlined above, there are plenty of possibilities, both short term temporary issues in the present, and potentially more permanent problems in the future, that may lead to Eagle not being being able to successfully authenticate (or update) after installation (or reinstallation, perhaps due to a software or system problem).

Up until now we have had certainty that with a copy of the relevant Eagle installation binary and our license key, no matter what happens, including any temporary problems or bigger changes in the future, we will be able to open any designs we've created. Even if it means one day spinning up a virtual machine with an older OS for compatibility with an old Eagle version.

The new scheme removes that confidence.

Whilst this whole change is of course unwelcome, I would feel better if you could guarantee that Eagle will be able to fall back to being a reader NO MATTER WHAT, and no matter whether it has ever talked to Autodesk servers.

You might feel that we sound like stubborn obsessives. I know that you are dedicated to making Eagle a success, and maybe you feel that you have staked your career on it. But for many of us running small businesses based on our hardware, we really do have our livelihoods tied up in these designs. Eagle might change direction and leave us behind, or you may move on to better things, but we will still need to know with complete certainty that we can access all our work, past and present.

Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback mode?

Thanks.

ps. Congratulations on the new features, they look great. I'm sorry so much focus is on this less pleasant topic, but it is honestly absolutely critical.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168363 is a reply to message #168361] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Joop14 wrote:
>
> Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older
> versions.
> No need to activate again when you replace your computer.
> What if they pull the plug from the activation server?
>
>
I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule.

> Joop14 wrote:
>
> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's
> absolutely NO REASON
> to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a
> pirated & patched copy will
> appear on the internet/torrents.
> As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but
> will not stop piracy.
I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better.

Best Regards,

Rachael

--
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168364 is a reply to message #168356] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Friedrich Bleikamp
Messages: 79
Registered: August 2005
Member
Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:
> Matt Berggren schrieb:
>
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
> OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.
>
> You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:
> one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as
> before: you get a key, you own the software.)
>
> Tilmann
>

As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at
CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable.

Friedrich
-----------------------------------------------
.... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a
functional news reader like Thunderbird!
.... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca
browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168365 is a reply to message #168362] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
justyn wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:05

Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback mode?


Just to clarify my earlier message, I mean a read-only mode that still allows manufacturing data to be generated.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168366 is a reply to message #168364] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Friedrich Bleikamp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:17
Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:

As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at
CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable.

Friedrich


That's a good point, there used to be volume discounts didn't there? I've only got the one license so never paid attention to that aspect but yes if I had to buy more seats then that would be a factor to consider.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168367 is a reply to message #168363] Thu, 19 January 2017 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11

I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule.


I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being defunct.

And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities. They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss.

rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11

I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better.


Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a permanent, offline license at a premium.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168368 is a reply to message #168367] Thu, 19 January 2017 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Justyn B wrote:
>
> I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do
> from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It
> didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being
> defunct.
Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk. They got big in the difficult telecoms space during the technology boom in that sector and then failed to react quickly when Apple came along with the iPhone. Also, they sold hardware, the costs and complexity of manufacturing and distribution for selling physical items worldwide and dealing with all the appropriate regulatory requirements is immense. In comparison Autodesk is a large software company selling to a well defined group of people, i.e. those involved requiring CAD.

> Justyn B wrote:
>
> And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities.
> They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting
> anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss.
That could be covered in the license agreements to ensure they were obliged to maintain the servers for perpetual licensing. These agreements set out their responsibilities to us as well as our responsibilities as users of their software.

> Justyn B wrote:
>
> Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing
> model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a
> permanent, offline license at a premium.
They should be able to offer a permanent license, I'm not convinced it absolutely needs to be completely offline but that would be the ideal scenario. Unfortunately I think that's unlikely to happen so being pragmatic about it and coming up with solutions that might enable permanent licenses in some form seems a sensible way forward.

In general I can see the pace of development in EAGLE has increased rapidly and this is something I am personally very pleased about. It's a shame the v8 release has been overshadowed by issues around licensing but I think that was inevitable. What's important is that we see continued investment and development of new features that make EAGLE both affordable for makers/hobbyists and a powerful tool that engineering professionals can use which isn't so prohibitively expensive that only large corporations can afford to have it. I'm optimistic that EAGLE will get closer to the big three in terms of performance with the investment of Autodesk whilst increasing the affordability at the lower end. Only time will tell I guess but hopefully they will be receptive to feedback from the community to help get them there.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168370 is a reply to message #168361] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 11:58, Joop wrote:
> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's
> absolutely NO REASON
> to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a
> pirated & patched copy will
> appear on the internet/torrents.
> As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but
> will not stop piracy.

That is 100% my opinion as well.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168371 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years without getting enough
revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system or they will sell
Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the licensing system as well).

So, if most users don't take a subscription, the problem will resolve in the end.
In the mean time use V6 or V7.
(I already downloaded copies of V6 & V7 for all platforms in case Autodesk gets the brilliant
idea to pull the plug of the ftp server)



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168373 is a reply to message #168354] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
Hi Glen,
At this time the Sales team is offering an aggressive incentive for
existing users. Please contact lourdes.vasquez@autodesk.com, she will
be able to inform you of the incentive program being made available.
Best Regards,
Ed
edwin.robledo@autodesk.com
Support



On 01/19/2017 02:08 AM, Glenn Jones wrote:
> Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the
> software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous
> versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't
> see the words upgrade used anywhere.
>
> I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route.
> They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly
> subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a
> second year.
>
> Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers?
>
> Glenn
>
>
> On 1/18/2017 2:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
>> Hi All --
>>
>> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether.
>> Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>>
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE
>> paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an
>> account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you
>> are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your
>> network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you
>> to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to
>> never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly
>> subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when
>> you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of
>> ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will
>> thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full
>> software for less money. <Insert revolt here> ;)
>>
>> WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the
>> license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV
>> star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.
>>
>> Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and
>> alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the
>> users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn
>> their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the
>> product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't
>> benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments,
>> movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc.
>> and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our
>> benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in
>> one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question
>> ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful.
>>
>> Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription
>> and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your
>> machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of
>> these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails
>> with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again,
>> not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed).
>>
>> +"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the
>> data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it?
>> What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"+
>>
>> So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. +Here's my
>> commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have
>> a license that you can fall back on+ *without need of internet
>> connection* *except when you first install it* (which after all, you
>> would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or
>> 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you
>> install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So
>> what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login
>> the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that,
>> you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely
>> without connection.
>>
>> *Caveat:* to install an update, +you will need to login+. The update
>> server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1,
>> etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that,
>> logout. Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin
>> somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they
>> have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos! ...that stuff is bad for you)
>> then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched
>> peaks. When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local
>> yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login,
>> get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte
>> macchiato' and head back up the slopes.
>>
>> Point being, we can do the freeware better. So we will.
>>
>> Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Matt Berggren
>> Director - Autodesk
>> @technolomaniac
>> hackaday.io/matt
>>
>> --
>> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
>> https://www.element14.com/community/message/213345
>>
>
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168374 is a reply to message #168363] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 12:11, rachaelp wrote:

> I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better.

It can be implemented both. Installer asks for licensekey/installcode,
if it gets one, everything works as before.

If not, work as Viewer with a login option to activate the subscribable
features.

I don't see why this should not be possible to combine both worlds.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168375 is a reply to message #168368] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 14:54, rachaelp wrote:
> Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk.

That doesn't matter. Fact is: it could happen. The remote possibility is
enough.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168377 is a reply to message #168364] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
Hi Friedrich,
At this time subscription volume licensing is not being offered for
EAGLE but this doesn't mean it will be implemented in the future. We
have been able to experienced volume license from other Autodesk
products, they are quite simple to use and manage. If you are
interested on upgrading, please contact lourdes.vasquez@autodesk.com to
provide you upgrade pricing options.

Best Regards,
Ed
edwin.robledo@autodesk.com

On 01/19/2017 06:17 AM, Friedrich Bleikamp wrote:
> Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:
>> Matt Berggren schrieb:
>>
>>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription
>> OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me.
>>
>> You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models:
>> one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as
>> before: you get a key, you own the software.)
>>
>> Tilmann
>>
>
> As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at
> CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable.
>
> Friedrich
> -----------------------------------------------
> ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a
> functional news reader like Thunderbird!
> ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca
> browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.
>
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168378 is a reply to message #168374] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 14:38

It can be implemented both. Installer asks for licensekey/installcode,
if it gets one, everything works as before.

If not, work as Viewer with a login option to activate the subscribable
features.

I don't see why this should not be possible to combine both worlds.

Markus


It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely. It might lead to unforeseen issues.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168379 is a reply to message #168375] Thu, 19 January 2017 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 595
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 14:40
On 19.01.2017 14:54, rachaelp wrote:
> Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk.

That doesn't matter. Fact is: it could happen. The remote possibility is
enough.

Markus


Lots of bad things could happen in life, some with very small probability. If we worried about every single remote possibility of something going wrong we would have very restrictive lives with all the precautions we'd be having to take to avoid every remote possibility of danger. Life is too short to worry about this sort of thing too much.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168380 is a reply to message #168378] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Rachael schrieb:

> It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two
> separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely.
> It might lead to unforeseen issues.

Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many
people won't subscribe and move on to other software.

It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription
model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a
completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license.

It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more,
many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses.
It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if
eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that).

Tilmann
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168381 is a reply to message #168370] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
On 01/19/2017 09:18 AM, Markus Rudolf wrote:
> On 19.01.2017 11:58, Joop wrote:
>> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's
>> absolutely NO REASON
>> to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a
>> pirated & patched copy will
>> appear on the internet/torrents.
>> As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate
>> users but
>> will not stop piracy.
>
> That is 100% my opinion as well.

Hi Markus,
With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not
really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into
EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable,
flexible and affordable.
Best Regards,
Ed
Edwin.robledo@autodesk.com
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168382 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chuck Huber
Messages: 601
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:
> Hi All --
>
> Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:
>
> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. <Insert revolt here> ;)

I can see that you're pretty much laughing off our concerns.

The only example you could present where this subscription based license
will save the customer money is for a part time Eagle user. Look at it
this way... In the last 4-1/2 years, I spent about $1000 to upgrade a
3-user Professional license from v5 to v6, and to v7.

Based on the current pricing of $500 per user per year, the equivalent
3-user Ultimate license will now cost $6,750 for 4-1/2 years.

Matt, help me to understand how the total cost of ownership is now lower
than what it was?

> WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example.
>
> Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business.

Again, I fail to see the humor. It's not so much about shutting down a
license server - it's more about the ability to access it. Several
customers, including myself, have already expressed concerns about
this. A scenario that is far more likely to occur would be one that is
out of Autodesk's control - something like a virus that renders getting
packets to and from Autodesk impossible.

> As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories.

Yes, and you now make software that can not be used in a secure or
remote environment. Yeah... I also read about Global Travel Rights.

> Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed).

Is it safe to assume that when you say that the license server and data
in the cloud will always be available, it means that your servers are
fully secured and unhackable and will never go down. We're more likely
to face an alien invasion than to have such servers.

> +"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"+
>
> So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. +Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on+ *without need of internet connection* *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection.

If you can remove the timer requirement for the freeware, then you can
also set the timer to a period longer than 14 days, per Rachel's suggestion.

> Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions!

I sincerely hope that Autodesk will lend a serious ear to and address
the concerns expressed about subscription based licensing.

However, I truly believe that this is a lost cause considering that
Autodesk's business model is subscription based.

Thanks for your help,
- Chuck
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168383 is a reply to message #168381] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 16:11, Ed wrote:

> Hi Markus,
> With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not
> really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into
> EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable,
> flexible and affordable.
> Best Regards,
> Ed
> Edwin.robledo@autodesk.com

The emphasis was more on the

>>> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's
>>> absolutely NO REASON
>>> to change that.

part....
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168385 is a reply to message #168382] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Teodorescu
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I can see all those new licensing modes for new product. But it's not this case.

The new Eagle is forked from the old Eagle.
The old Eagle had licensed users.
The new Eagle wants that old Eagle's user pool to pay "again"?

Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168386 is a reply to message #168385] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 16:32, Dan Teodorescu wrote:

> The new Eagle wants that old Eagle's user pool to pay "again"?

No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the
software afterwards, they want to rent it to you.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168387 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shabaz
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2012
Senior Member
Hi Matt,

When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE Maker.

As mentioned in an earlier thread I'm not averse to the subscription model for the Maker version provided it works out cheaper than purchasing/upgrading releases without skipping them,
The free version is something that doesn't work for me, since I need 4-layers (and 6 currently), for not-profit purposes. Many hobbyist needs require 4-layer, and it was nice that
you guys leap-frogged the competition to offer 6-layer (which I and others will need more and more today and in the future).

Many thanks,

Shabaz.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168390 is a reply to message #168354] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
> Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the
> software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous
> versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't
> see the words upgrade used anywhere.
>
> I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route.
> They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly
> subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a
> second year.
>
> Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers?
>
> Glenn
Hi Glenn --

We're working out the details of that for v7 customers.  More to come on that here shortly!

Best regards,

Matt

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168391 is a reply to message #168383] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 49
Registered: August 2005
Member
On 01/19/2017 10:30 AM, Markus Rudolf wrote:
> On 19.01.2017 16:11, Ed wrote:
>
>> Hi Markus,
>> With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not
>> really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into
>> EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable,
>> flexible and affordable.
>> Best Regards,
>> Ed
>> Edwin.robledo@autodesk.com
>
> The emphasis was more on the
>
>>>> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's
>>>> absolutely NO REASON
>>>> to change that.
>
> part....

Hi Markus,
I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long
time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to
40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license
because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their
installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach
hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to
work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.
This new model now gives the user access to their software without
requiring pairing up a file and installation code.
Best Regards,
Ed
edwin.robledo@autodesk.com
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168392 is a reply to message #168386] Thu, 19 January 2017 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
> No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the
> software afterwards, they want to rent it to you.

The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y only to find that it didnt.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168393 is a reply to message #168356] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barry Walker
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2012
Junior Member
Dead to me also.  Fortunately KiCAD appears ready for real work.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168400 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jussi Ilvonen
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2014
Junior Member
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 19:26:46 GMT, Matt Berggren
<noreply-480270@element14.com> wrote:
> [...]
> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement.  Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected.  If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.  <Insert revolt here>  ;)
>


So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything
from the previous licensing fiasco?

You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software,
especially not business critical software like this.

Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168401 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
Matt

I purchased the full commercial licence for Eagle last month.  My understanding is that if I want to upgrade, I need to convert to the subscription model, and I have essentially lost the investment that I made in purchasing a license.

Mark Sauerwald

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168403 is a reply to message #168401] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member

from a few posts not too long ago....

Autodesk acquires 'EAGLE': Official Q&A Discussion, New Website & What This Means!
jwatson Employee Jul 20, 2016 10:57
OFFICIAL NEWS from Matt Berggren, Director Autodesk Circuits / Tinkercad / 123D and now...EAGLE!
Hello EAGLE users one and all!


Will there still be a free version?

Absolutely yes. We have no plans to eliminate the free tier at all. This is central to EAGLE's success and aligns with how Autodesk does business today. We'll continue this license to ensure everyone has access to powerful, easy to use schematic and PCB software.


How does this affect upgrades?

Upgrades work as they had in the past, for the most part. If you want to upgrade from v6 Layout + Schematic to v7 Layout + Schematic, then you pay 33% of the license price. Simple.

If you want to upgrade from v6 Layout + Schematic to v7 Layout + Schematic + Autorouter, then you first pay the upgrade cost of 33% to v7 Layout + Schematic and finally, you pay the difference in cost between the two v7 license types. Same as before.

What's different? For a limited time, we've reduced the price to upgrade legacy v5 licenses of EAGLE from 66% to 33% of the license price. So if you've got a version 5 license, rather than paying 66% of the new license cost to upgrade, do it now for only 33%!



Will I be required to pay 'maintenance'?

Simply put, no.




You should see some improvements in the pricing starting next week. The
site has given some incorrect prices as of late so we should these
issues addressed very soon.

I'd say check the pricing next week, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia




Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168404 is a reply to message #168391] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

> Hi Markus,
> I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long
> time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to
> 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license
> because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their
> installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach
> hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to
> work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they
messed it up. Would be fair enough.

Nice extra revenue :-)

I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168405 is a reply to message #168392] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Matt Berggren schrieb:
>> No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the
>> software afterwards, they want to rent it to you.
>
> The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a
> subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for
> everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better
> hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and
> then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y
> only to find that it didnt.


Now you are completely inverting the facts.

With a paid license, you get exactly what you pay for. You might even
check out the freeware before to see if any new functions or changes
justify the expenses. If you want to further use the old version
(without additional cost, BTW), you simply don't update.

With a subscription, you continuously pay even without any update (if
it's really possible to avoid updates without losing the activation).
*Then* you are disappointed!

Tilmann
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168406 is a reply to message #168392] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 16:56, Matt Berggren wrote:

> The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y only to find that it didnt.

In the previous model you at least had the option on staying
disappointed because if you decide to not put in any more money in the
slot machine, you still had a full functional version which you could
reinstall whenever needed without any hazzle.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168407 is a reply to message #168404] Thu, 19 January 2017 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Morrison
Messages: 1129
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 16:48
On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

> Hi Markus,
> I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long
> time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to
> 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license
> because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their
> installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach
> hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to
> work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they
messed it up. Would be fair enough.

Nice extra revenue Smile

I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.


Nor have I as a user.

As a distributor I started a policy about 2 years ago to charge $25 to replace lost licenses, it was very clear in the email sent out with license info. After that, no one complained and I only had one customer who needed to use it--and he apologized for the extra work he caused us.

Cheers,

James.


James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital
http://www.stratforddigital.ca
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168409 is a reply to message #168404] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:48
On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

> Hi Markus,
> I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long
> time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to
> 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license
> because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their
> installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach
> hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to
> work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they
messed it up. Would be fair enough.

Nice extra revenue Smile

I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.


Alternatively since every purchaser from now on is inevitably going to need an Autodesk account, just a link to download their key from their account page on the site. Then it is up to them whether they keep it safe or not.

Sounds like a pretty simple solution to me.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168410 is a reply to message #168400] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything
> from the previous licensing fiasco?
>
> You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software,
> especially not business critical software like this.
>
> Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

Hi Jussi,

I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the
same post.

With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature
implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
other program.

If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
I can reach out to and get a quick response.

I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to
give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts
just seem to be reactionary.

Hope this helps,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168411 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 19.01.2017 18:06, Jorge Garcia wrote:

> I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the
> same post.

If CERN uses it, i'd tend to say it's most likely good enough.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168412 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
Jorge

I would agree with you that for business use, there is value in having a professional support team who continue to update the software and provide technical support.   This is why I paid the fee to upgrade my Eagle license to a full, commercial license less than a month ago.

I would be willing to pay a fee for support, and I am happy to pay for upgrades,  but not for use of the software, this is why I paid to purchase the full commercial license for Eagle last month. 

When you tie the use of my designs to paying a fee to access them, you raise a barrier that I am not willing to cross.   I will be looking at continuing to use Eagle version 7, until I am forced to move to another CAD environment in which I will have perpetual, free access to my designs.

Mark

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168413 is a reply to message #168412] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member

old scenario:
a) Invest $1500 (or thereabout) full version, no license expiration
b) minor upgrade available with a few few features you don't care about...pay $500 upgrade, or stay put..you decide..maybe wait a year or two
c)major update avail, you want it. If didn't do b, now pay more to upgrade, maybe $750....if you don't want...stick with "a" as long as you are happy.


new scenario:
a)purchase yearly subscription 3 years @ $500/year, same as "a" above, ok
b)during 3 years some small & some big improvements made...you automatically get them, good investment
c)or during 3 years not too much improvement...still "ok" investment
During 3 years subscription price certainly goes up and up and up
d)3 years later your subscription expired, now $1200/year....decide too expensive and don't want. But wait, now your Eagle version is completely unusable, locked out forever ....no more projects for you!


In 6 months, went from "no maintenence fee" to now $500/year..to what in 3 years from now?



You also have no expectation of feature
implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
other program.

If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
I can reach out to and get a quick response.


constant development cycle...that is somewhat laughable...feature and improvements were requested for years then more years, with little or no action taken on many of them. Perhaps this is now changed. Is there an actual complete list of what has been implemented? Is there a roadmap?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168414 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 19.01.2017 um 18:06 schrieb Jorge Garcia:
> With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
> is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
> should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature
> implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
> capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
> other program.
>
> If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I

What software serves autodesk.com? Isn't that open source software a bit
risky? If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168415 is a reply to message #168400] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Dickinson
Messages: 14
Registered: September 2008
Junior Member
I totally agree.

I have previously come seriously unstuck over software with complicated
licensing arrangements. I ended up unable to read or edit my own data so
I have learned my lesson.

I have used Eagle for many years and liked it a lot. I have invested
many hours implementing component libs, UserLanguagePrograms and scripts
and also separate application programs to handle BOM data, however I
find the imposed new licensing arrangements unacceptable. As Jussi has
pointed out KiCad now appears to have reached the point where it is a
viable alternative - so with the knowledge that I will be loosing my
invested time, I think the time has now come to move on from Eagle.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Stephen Dickinson*
Organised Technology Ltd
7-4-6 Cameron House
White Cross Industrial Estate
Lancaster
Lancashire
LA1 4XF
Phone +44 (0)1524 849933
WEB: www.orgtec.co.uk

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866340707.


On 19/01/2017 16:24, Jussi Ilvonen wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 19:26:46 GMT, Matt Berggren
> <noreply-480270@element14.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>> Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. <Insert revolt here> ;)
>>
>
> So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything
> from the previous licensing fiasco?
>
> You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software,
> especially not business critical software like this.
>
> Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168416 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
justyn
Messages: 21
Registered: October 2014
Location: UK
Junior Member
Jorge Garcia wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 12:06

With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
should you run intoproblems. You also have no expectation of feature
implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
other program.

If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
I can reach out to and get a quick response.


Like many others I use plenty of open source software in business-critical situations and I find it very reliable. Sometimes communities can respond just as quickly as company support. But as you say, there are often tradeoffs.

If people want an absolute guarantee that a company will not take a product in a direction they don't like, open source is the only option. But they may have to fund development of features or fixes themselves. KiCad (and gEDA) will be a good fit for many people.

Anyway, this really feels like it is getting off topic.

Jorge Garcia wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 12:06

I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to
give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts
just seem to be reactionary.


I'd like to be quite clear here that I personally don't have a problem with the subscription model itself. I'm happy to pay monthly, or a lump sum, or whatever. I don't care, this is critical software for my business.

I understand that others disagree.

My main concern (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is of not being able to use the software in the event of lack of connection to the license servers if I am not successfully signed in.

This does include in the long term (you don't know the license servers will still be running in 15 years).

But more obviously it also includes the short term:

* The servers might go down, there might be a big DDoS attach, whatever
* I might not have access to the internet, might be at a factory, on a glacier, my ISP might be suffering an outage

"Wait!" you say, "Just make sure you've used Eagle online beforehand, and everything is fine!"

But that is not always the way things work. It might be unplanned. A system update on your computer might cause the license check to crap out, or you might have to reinstall Eagle, whatever. And of course this doesn't cover the problem of using the file in the future when Autodesk isn't running the servers (or not supporting them for your platform).

It could be very serious not to be able to use Eagle properly in these situations. But there we go, perhaps we have to accept it. I'm genuinely trying to find middle ground here. I would at least like to know that I will be able to open the files, inspect, create manufacturing data etc.

So to Matt and Jorge, please could you tell me that an Eagle fallback mode will allow limited functionality (ie read-only) even if it has never registered with an Autodesk server. Eagle has always been able to open all compatible files in read-only mode without any license file at all.

If you would please just preserve this true offline fallback to read-only, I will reluctantly stomach the rest of it and subscribe to Premium right away.

Please consider this.

Thanks.

ps sorry for all the bold. And sorry to the many others for whom even this compromise would be unacceptable.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168417 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Stevens
Messages: 44
Registered: July 2008
Member
So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support
and the license to develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There a many open source
applications that provide support.

Eric


On 01/19/2017 12:06 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote:

> With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any
> professional assistance should you run into problems.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168419 is a reply to message #168415] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
Designing a product with rented software is like building a house on leased land.

There are plenty of people who do it, but I'm not one of them.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168420 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jussi Ilvonen
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2014
Junior Member
On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 12:06:25 -0500, Jorge Garcia
<jorge@cadsoftusa.com> wrote:

>
>> So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything
>> from the previous licensing fiasco?
>>
>> You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software,
>> especially not business critical software like this.
>>
>> Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?
>
> Hi Jussi,
>
> I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the
> same post.
>

Well, electronics CAD is pretty business critical for me and my
company and as far as I know only options with Linux and preferably
Windows support are Eagle and KiCad.

> With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
> is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
> should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature

This is certainly true. As I see it this does not really differ from
what the Eagle offers: there is no guarantee that the prompt support
or professional assistance actually helps...

> implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's
> capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any
> other program.
>

Open Source development is usually considerable more transparent than
that of proprietary software.

If there is a feature missing in an open source software I can always
implement such features myself or pay someone to do the work in my
behalf. I have no such recourse with proprietary software.

> If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
> would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
> I can reach out to and get a quick response.

What little contact I have had with Cadsoft support I can say that the
email support has not that useful. So I don't think I am any worse off
with having to relay on community support.

>
> I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to
> give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts
> just seem to be reactionary.

I fully admit that I have an extreme visceral reaction to rented
software, and I don't think that any arguments to the contrary
(rational or not) are going to change that ;(


Best Regards
Jussi
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168422 is a reply to message #168417] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/19/2017 12:47 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
> So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which
> Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support and the license to
> develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There
> a many open source applications that provide support.

Hi Eric,

Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint
box on a daily basis and I work with open source tools all the time.

My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and
trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being reasonable. Large open
source projects have very active communities, producing high quality
software. Linux, Qt, and Internet infrastructure are all very large open
source projects.

The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more
modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD, please don't try to
misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168423 is a reply to message #168419] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/19/2017 12:50 PM, Mark Sauerwald wrote:
> Designing a product with rented software is like building a house on leased land.
>
> There are plenty of people who do it, but I'm not one of them.
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> https://www.element14.com/community/message/213475
>

Hi Mark,

If you think about it, everyone builds houses on leased land. You may
purchase a property and build on it, but what happens if you don't pay
your property taxes? The government can still take your home and your
land, so do you really own it?

I think there are many situations where the concept of ownership is
illusory.

In the grand scheme of things, how much do we really own?

Something to think about, I guess.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168426 is a reply to message #168410] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dietmar Schwertberger
Messages: 31
Registered: April 2011
Member
On 19.01.2017 18:06, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as
> is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance
> should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature

Where's the problem? Our department has been relying on open-source
tools for a very long time now.
With an open-source tool, I can fix bugs myself and support is done via
newsgroups or mailing lists.
Of course, there are tools where a build environment is difficult to
set up, but from what I've seen, KiCad should be reasonably easy. It's
even built with my prefered UI toolkit.

For mission-critical and long-running tasks, I always prefer open
source over proprietary stuff.


Actually, Eagle is competing more with KiCad than e.g. with Altium.
The licensing does not match this any more. The prices increased quite
a lot in the past when there was no competition in the lower cost
region.
Now, that there is competition, the prices increased even more.
That's quite against the mechanisms of a market.

In the past, Cadsoft missed to deliver updates with the features and
UI improvements that people wanted and so people did not upgrade.
Obviously, that's a difficult business model.
Now Autodesk wants to people to rent the software based on the promise
that everything will be better? I would suggest to go back to the
old license model again for two or three releases to demonstrate that
things really get better.


Of course the new license model has a big advantage:
Whenever someone upgrades to the new model, someone else can buy
a cheap "used" license.


Regards,

Dietmar
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168427 is a reply to message #168400] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dietmar Schwertberger
Messages: 31
Registered: April 2011
Member
On 19.01.2017 17:24, Jussi Ilvonen wrote:
> Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

I think that the migration is still non-trivial when you want to take
over schematics and libraries. If you plan to migrate, it's probably
better to stay away from Eagle 8 and it's modular design blocks.
Such data structures make things more complicated than flat ones.

My plan was to stay with Eagle 6.6 for one or two more years and then
move to KiCad. Hopefully by then, better migration tools will be
available.


Regards,

Dietmar
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168429 is a reply to message #168422] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Stevens
Messages: 44
Registered: July 2008
Member
Jorge,

No problem, I understand that there are a lot (most) of open source projects where dedicated support is non-existent,
but it was the way it was phrased. "With an open source tool like ..." came off a bit volatile to me. If you had said
"With a tool like ..." it would have been less likely to ruffle my feathers, at least.

I also have to work with some CAD software, not from Autodesk btw, that we pay insane amounts of money for support and
I'd be better off asking my dog for solutions. So there's that.

Stay cool,
Eric



> Hi Eric,
>
> Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint box on a daily basis and I work with open source
> tools all the time.
>
> My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being
> reasonable. Large open source projects have very active communities, producing high quality software. Linux, Qt, and
> Internet infrastructure are all very large open source projects.
>
> The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD,
> please don't try to misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jorge Garcia
>
>
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168431 is a reply to message #168429] Thu, 19 January 2017 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
This was non-functional yesterday & is still non-functional today....

Autodesk Knowledge Network

Due to system issues, our Chat option for Contacting Support may not be available. We apologize for the inconvenience and are currently working to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Please use an alternative method to contact support until this issue is resolved.



https://knowledge.autodesk.com/customer-service/download-install
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168436 is a reply to message #168431] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/19/2017 1:40 PM, Hoyt wrote:
> This was non-functional yesterday & is still non-functional today....
>
> Autodesk Knowledge Network
>
> Due to system issues, our Chat option for Contacting Support may not be
> available. We apologize for the inconvenience and are currently working to
> resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Please use an alternative method
> to contact support until this issue is resolved.
>
>
> https://knowledge.autodesk.com/customer-service/download-install
>

Hi Hoyt,

This is where things can sometimes be challenging, there are 20 ways to
reach support through Autodesk.The AKN is not the best one is you want
to reach us.

The official recommended approach is to login to your Autodesk account
and on the top right there's a support button click it and go to view my
cases and create a case there. That's probably the best way for now
although other options will be coming soon.

If you have our old phone number that still works so you can reach us
directly.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168437 is a reply to message #168429] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Pearce
Messages: 481
Registered: September 2012
Senior Member
On 19/01/17 18:32, Eric Stevens wrote:
>
> I also have to work with some CAD software, not from Autodesk btw, that
> we pay insane amounts of money for support and I'd be better off asking
> my dog for solutions. So there's that.

To be honest, EVERY time I've had to use the so-called support provided
by a commercial software house, I'd have been better off asking the dog.
In contrast, the open source community are very open and helpful.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168438 is a reply to message #168437] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> To be honest, EVERY time I've had to use the so-called support provided
> by a commercial software house, I'd have been better off asking the dog.
> In contrast, the open source community are very open and helpful.
>

Hi Rob,

Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it. I'm still going to be
active on our forums and worst case you can always call.

It just kinda hurts to be compared to a dog, but I guess that's how it
rolls.

P.S I'm mostly joking about feeling bad

The support team is still going to be the same if that's any consolation
and you'll still be able to reach us.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168440 is a reply to message #168422] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Johnson
Messages: 87
Registered: November 2004
Member
Jorge Garcia wrote:

> On 1/19/2017 12:47 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
>> So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which
>> Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support and the license to
>> develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There
>> a many open source applications that provide support.
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint
> box on a daily basis and I work with open source tools all the time.
>
> My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and
> trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being reasonable. Large open
> source projects have very active communities, producing high quality
> software. Linux, Qt, and Internet infrastructure are all very large open
> source projects.
>
> The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more
> modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD, please don't try to
> misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jorge Garcia

On a related note, I've been a licensed user of Eagle on my Gentoo Linux
workstation (actually multiple Linux workstations over the years) since my
first purchase of Eagle V3 for $613.50 on August 17, 1999. (Yes, I keep
financial records forever it seems.) I've bought every professional upgrade
since then, and gone multi-user the last few years. I've done dozens and
dozens of boards with Eagle and can count the number of times it has crashed
on me on the fingers of one hand in all that time. Kudos to the Eagle team.

My workstations have been just as reliable, which is a far cry from earlier
days running Windows. I can not, and will not, ever return to a Windows OS.
I run other proprietary applications under Gentoo as well, including VariCAD
3D for mechanical modeling.

I greet the news of Autodesk's purchase of Cadsoft with a lot of
trepidation. First, I am no fan of subscription licensing models, for all
the good reasons already mentioned by others in this thread. Putting that
aside for the moment, I am just as concerned with Autodesk's track record of
support for Unix-based OS's (which both Linux and MacOS are obvious examples
of), or more precisely, lack of same. I believe it was R14, for example,
when Autodesk unceremoniously dumped AutoCAD users on Unix off the
proverbial cliff. What reassurances can you give us that Autodesk won't do
the same soon for those of us running Eagle on Linux and Mac workstations at
some time down the road? What are the chances that V9 will be released next
year, but "Sorry, due to low demand we've dropped support for Linux and Mac.
However, please accept our offer of a reduced-price subscription to
Windows11 Virus Edition, good for the next 30 days." I can guarantee that
Autodesk's past actions are going to factor heavily into my company's
decision to upgrade or not moving forward, and I would appreciate Autodesk
offering the same OS support assurances as they seem to be offering
currently regarding the longevity of their license servers.

Sincerely,
Bob Johnson
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168442 is a reply to message #168440] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it. I'm still going to be
active on our forums and worst case you can always call.


Jorge:

For many years your help has been great, appreciated & continues to be the best! Top-notch & quick & probably partly why so many dedicated users have stuck with Eagle through the several "transitions".
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168443 is a reply to message #168440] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> I greet the news of Autodesk's purchase of Cadsoft with a lot of
> trepidation. First, I am no fan of subscription licensing models, for all
> the good reasons already mentioned by others in this thread. Putting that
> aside for the moment, I am just as concerned with Autodesk's track record of
> support for Unix-based OS's (which both Linux and MacOS are obvious examples
> of), or more precisely, lack of same. I believe it was R14, for example,
> when Autodesk unceremoniously dumped AutoCAD users on Unix off the
> proverbial cliff. What reassurances can you give us that Autodesk won't do
> the same soon for those of us running Eagle on Linux and Mac workstations at
> some time down the road? What are the chances that V9 will be released next
> year, but "Sorry, due to low demand we've dropped support for Linux and Mac.
> However, please accept our offer of a reduced-price subscription to
> Windows11 Virus Edition, good for the next 30 days." I can guarantee that
> Autodesk's past actions are going to factor heavily into my company's
> decision to upgrade or not moving forward, and I would appreciate Autodesk
> offering the same OS support assurances as they seem to be offering
> currently regarding the longevity of their license servers.
>
> Sincerely,
> Bob Johnson
>

Hi Bob,

I hope you're doing well. I commend on your record keeping :).

I'm sure you will agree with me that Linux today is not what it was when
Autodesk dropped Linux support in R14.

Linux is everyday becoming more and more viable as workstation operating
system. The "year of the Desktop" came and went in my opinion. Autodesk
is becoming more aware of this, and the fact that we were able to
continue supporting linux is a testament of this.

I think the future is bright for Linux at Autodesk. As far as EAGLE is
concerned we are committed to continuing cross-platform support.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168444 is a reply to message #168403] Thu, 19 January 2017 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dimitris Stasinopoulo
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I was about to post the same thing.

+*How does this affect upgrades?*+
+Upgrades work as they had in the past, for the most part.+

+*Will I be required to pay ‘maintenance’?*+
+Simply put, no.+

I feel really, really betrayed here. That was just 6 months ago.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168446 is a reply to message #168444] Thu, 19 January 2017 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 69
Registered: March 2007
Member
Quote from reply #126: (technolomaniac aka Matt Berggren, the Director of Autodesk Circuits)

Quote:
...it's not going subscription.


http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/126/

In six months, Autodesk can change completely their opinion. How reliable are they?
What about all their statements here? What are they worth after six months?

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168447 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 19 January 2017 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rickb
Messages: 16
Registered: March 2016
Location: Junction City, OR USA
Junior Member
Matt Berggren:

Please reply to this post.

http:// www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52902/168347/45b65797cd4e09a2431dcc38f 062dd05/#msg_168347

Rick
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168457 is a reply to message #168438] Thu, 19 January 2017 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Pearce
Messages: 481
Registered: September 2012
Senior Member
On 19/01/17 19:29, Jorge Garcia wrote:
>
> Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it.

Actually I wasn't referring to you because I've never needed support for
Eagle (I've occasionally asked questions on this forum but got most of
my answers from fellow users in the same way I would for open-source
tools). Eric referred to an unnamed piece of software, I merely extended
that to the general case from my experience of commercial software.
Cadsoft have, in the past, behaved far more like an open-source team in
that users' questions and opinions have been listened to and treated
with respect. We can only hope that will continue.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168458 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aaron Turner
Messages: 8
Registered: September 2013
Junior Member
So four things really concern me @*Matt Berggren, (https://www.element14.com/community/people/technolomaniac)*

1. You told everyone 6 months ago that Eagle wasn't going subscription... But I'm sure we're supposed to trust you now!  Because of your long history of accurately predicting the future?  :|

2. CadSoft already once pissed off its customers with a subscription licensing change and ~6 months after purchase by AutoDesk you pull the exact same crap.  Talk about not learning from past mistakes/listening to your customers! X-(

3. All this talk about you'd never turn off the licensing server because that would upset your customers is hollow.  Realistically speaking we all know things change- AutoDesk is committed to PCB design today, but that may not be true in the future.  Things change (see #1).  Maybe AutoDesk ends up pissing off their customers (see #2) or you just can't innovate fast enough (hmmmm... I bet the Eagle software is full of technical debt being such an old code base- I bet it's not easy to work on).  What happens when a bunch of your customers leave and it no longer becomes worth developing and then maintaining the licensing servers?  Companies write off acquisitions far larger then CadSoft/Eagle and kill off projects/services all the time.  Please don't tell me to trust you.  If it's not in the contact/license then it's not enforceable. 

4. The fact that you've announced this change and haven't apparently thought everything through.  Where is the Maker level?  I paid $169 for something and now you don't seem to have a path forward for me.  Again, a not so subtle hint that I don't matter as a customer.  Sure you'll announce something "soon", but obviously I wasn't a priority.  Now I have fear, uncertainty and doubt about AutoDesk/Eagle about the long term. :-/

Seriously, I get it.  Selling a subscription provides AutoDesk a lot of advantages:
1. Smooths out your revenue and makes it easier to predict your financials to the market, plan internally, etc
2. Re-occuring revenue is awesome!
3. Everyone else is doing it!

Now maybe things will end up being better in the long run.  I dunno.  But right now I can tell you that things look really bad and you've lost a lot of good will with the Eagle community.   At this point, I'll have to re-evaluate KiCad and other alternatives before I sign up for the subscription, where as if you had just kept the same licensing model I most likely would of just paid the money without worrying about it.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168459 is a reply to message #168458] Fri, 20 January 2017 01:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. Smile At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. That would be at best unfair, at worst dishonest. But I have so many things that are more pressing. The point of my response - which I agree was unclear was - routing, real-time DRC, some improvements to polygon handling, better revision management and versioning, better BOM tools, better interface to manufacturing, some library improvements, interface to 3D, etc are all good things to worry about today as they drive value for the users. Those are the priority. We'll shelve the other stuff until get to a place where that makes sense. That was the point of that comment. I've got other stuff on my radar. And I think that the shortlist today is pretty much a who's-who of what folks have been asking for for some time. Only now we have a combined development team that can really drive some of this home. Thanks for calling me out...I sounded like a politician and it was totally fair. Smile
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168480 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
Matt Berggren,
for a director of Autodesk you certainly don't seem to have understood what your company has purchased. I am sure you have many corporate customers but EAGLE seems to have widespread use in small entrepreneurial companies that run on small budgets. It's not that we don't have $500 a year to spend on subscription but there are many other more important things to spend the $500 on. Your subscription licensing will certainly kill a big part of that side of your business and I can tell you, unlike corporations we are a lot more flexible in changing our preferred software tools.

When Microsoft changed to subscription model for MS Office we changed to Open Office. It took me a few weeks to find my way around some of the advanced functions in the spreadsheet but now we won't even think of looking back. I have the feeling we will be doing the same with EAGLE and KiCAD. It is a learning curve for sure, but it is ahead on EAGLE in many aspects and it is receiving massive support from CERN and other research projects. It is fast becoming the science community standard and whilst some people like Jorge Garcia above may look down on it I know people at STFC where I used to work that design satellite electronics with KiCAD.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168705 is a reply to message #168480] Fri, 20 January 2017 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member

What's the new feature... Hmmm...sounds familiar? now pay a subscription for it until it works or never does.

Thank you for using EAGLE and participating on our forums. I am really sorry that at this time the BGA Router is not working as expected. I have contacted the developers and made a note on their thread. I am not able to provide you a timeline, but I can assure you that they are currently working on it.
===================================
Re: Where has the ULP library gone?
....
01-19-2017 09:53 AM in reply to: talon2000
Hello

That part of the site is still not working properly. We hope to have it working in the next few days.
Sorry about the inconvenience


yes, working on it
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168706 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alan Hightower
Messages: 2
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
1st)  PLEASE stop comparing or referring to the Microsoft and Adobe subscription models.  I'm a subscriber of both.  I pay $100/year to Microsoft for 5 of their most popular and useful products (+ some cloud services) for licenses to run them on up to 5 machines.  I pay $600/year to Adobe for their ENTIRE product catalog with licenses for 2 machines.  Autodesk wants to charge $500/year for JUST Eagle for, I believe, 2 machines though the way you request a second home license and the terms of use are clearly not transparent and quite frankly vague .  These are apples verses alien devil fruit comparisons.  Please stop.

2nd) As other have pointed out, with the introduction of 7.0, CADSoft tried the tethered license server authentication method and users revolted.  I don't see the addition of a subscription pricing model sugar-coating that pill any.

3rd) Just from a historical personal record of payments to CADSoft as a professional license owner since version 5.x, AutoDesk is now asking me to double my annual cost of ownership.  Potentially they are asking me to quadruple my cost of ownership if you consider I use Eagle today on my office computer, home computer, and field laptop.  I didn't initially upgrade to Eagle 7.x because of the 2 machine limit.  This is a real deal breaker for me.

4th) Lastly CADSoft has never polled my feature interest for road-map input.  I never use any of the 7.x new features.  I don't consider any of the new features of 8.x worthy of a significant investment.  Add a parallel matched length group auto-router or any real simulation tools and my pocket book is wide open.  From my perspective, CADsoft has been very misaligned with me as a consumer.  AutoDesk is moving in the wrong direction.

Time to swallow the KiCAD pill...

R.I.P.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168709 is a reply to message #168410] Fri, 20 January 2017 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Jorge Garcia schrieb:

> I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to
> give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts
> just seem to be reactionary.

You still miss the point, completely.

Being able to work on my own data, without any "online" permission from
anyone, with a software that I own, is essential to me (and obviously
many others) and not open for discussion in any way.

I simply won't rent software.

Tilmann
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168719 is a reply to message #168410] Fri, 20 January 2017 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Miles
Messages: 37
Registered: July 2007
Member
On 1/19/2017 9:06 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I
> would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone
> I can reach out to and get a quick response.
>

What you've done here is create a massive incentive for someone to start
a business doing the same thing for KiCAD that Red Hat does for Linux.

-- john, KE5FX
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168724 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Kopec
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
Having been burned years ago with the AutocadLT debacle, I guess it's time for me to swallow the KiCad pill as well.

But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168728 is a reply to message #168724] Fri, 20 January 2017 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Uwe Bonnes
Messages: 340
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Tom Kopec <noreply-143408@element14.com> wrote:
....
> But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my
> existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last
> week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still
> works.

Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade!

Another showstopper.
--
Uwe Bonnes bon@elektron.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 1623569 ------- Fax. 06151 1623305 ---------
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168730 is a reply to message #168728] Fri, 20 January 2017 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alan Hightower
Messages: 2
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
Someone on HaD pointed out the terms of service that stated you also forfeit your previous license when you upgrade.  I don't understand the legal basis for that.  If I previously purchased a 7.x license in the past, I own that license - period.  Even if I buy a 1 year subscription to 8.0 -> whatever is out in 1 year, I don't forfeit what I've already paid for.  AutoDesk has no legal grounds for this.  If I lease a new car for full lease price, I don't have to give the dealership my old used car - even if I had purchased it from them in the past.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168731 is a reply to message #168730] Fri, 20 January 2017 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
They can if it is a clear part of an upgrade license contract. However given that is is subscription based you can get the subscription independently and that way they can't force anything on your old license.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168732 is a reply to message #168728] Fri, 20 January 2017 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1348
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
> Tom Kopec <noreply-143408@element14.com> wrote:
> ...
>> But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my
>> existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last
>> week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still
>> works.
>
> Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade!
>
> Another showstopper.
>

What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for
V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0
to even try V8.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168744 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Henrik Andrinsson
Messages: 2
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Autodesk seems to think that Eagle is some kind of a premium CAD tool... Eeeeeh! Wrong, it's mainly for hobbyists and small scale production. There are several other competitors offering better performance and more functions at a lower licence/subscription cost, than you with your new subscription price rates.

The main reason my company bought Eagle was that the price/performance ratio was just about good enough. With this subscription model, you have lost us and many others, and you are surely sawing of the branch Eagle is sitting on.


To paraphrase South Park:

-Oh no! Autodesk killed Eagle!

-You b.......!!!

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168746 is a reply to message #168744] Fri, 20 January 2017 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member

Sadly, whatever the good efforts of the developers were, they have been 100% wasted now. The loss of goodwill, the anger and disdain far outweighs any new routing methods, clicking improvements or other tweaks. The features could have been brought out to excite everyone, but instead now Autodesk has a serious black eye and have embarrassed themselves for foolishness. It even questions AD's other products and schemes now as well. That does not mean all is lost, but there will be no trumpets or applause this round.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168749 is a reply to message #168732] Fri, 20 January 2017 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:
> On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
>> Tom Kopec <noreply-143408@element14.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>> But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my
>>> existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last
>>> week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it
>>> still
>>> works.
>>
>> Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade!
>>
>> Another showstopper.
>>
>
> What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for
> V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0
> to even try V8.
>

Hi Everyone,

No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down.
Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have
perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has
always been.

Things only change with V8 going forward.

hth,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168750 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
On the positive side I feel confident that Autodesk will see the EAGLE customer base plummet and hopefully resell EAGLE to someone that understand the EAGLE customer base. If my current version can keep me going in the meantime I will upgrade then.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168756 is a reply to message #168750] Fri, 20 January 2017 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Harris
Messages: 2
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it.

Like others who have already posted, I have a Premium license. The ROI to continue under a subscription scheme is not there for me.

I didn't even know about KiCAD until now. Reviewing their webpage makes me want to try it . 32 layers, trace tuning, hmm. There are downsides to free software mainly "fast" technical support and "fast" bug fixes (although this isn't always the case). However, the new pricing structure has me looking at KiCAD (free being icing on the cake).

Maybe after this revolt, Autodesk/Eagle will go back to the old perpetual license structure; Or at least "de-cloud" the license so you don't need an active subscription to use the revision you already have on your workstation(s). At that point, I'll re-evaluate an upgrade to the latest.

As of now, I'm evaluating KiCAD and we'll see how well it works for me.

Regards,

Dave H.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168758 is a reply to message #168341] Fri, 20 January 2017 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rickb
Messages: 16
Registered: March 2016
Location: Junction City, OR USA
Junior Member
Matt Berggren appears to be ignoring this thread after being called out for his comments on EEV Blogg
*****************************************************
Quote from EEVblog

"@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. Smile At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. That would be at best unfair, at worst dishonest. But I have so many things that are more pressing."
***************************************

He is also ignoring my question regarding the make version of Eagle.

Matt Berggren said in his own blog:

"What about the $169, 6-Layer Make License?

The $169 non-commercial Maker license lives on and will continue to live on for the foreseeable future. This is a great tool for people requiring that extra bit of horsepower for their personal projects!"
**************************************
I wrote in a previous post:

"I purchased this last year with the expectation of upgrading to the next major version, but I see no mention of it on the Autodesk website.

Details please."
************************************************
Matt:
Your refusal to address these points is disturbing.

I feel that at the very least, current license owners should be grandfathered in under the old license terms and upgrade costs to version 8 plus all minor upgrades. New purchasers going forward know what the existing terms are before buying. Grandfathered upgrades to version 8 would have the choice of staying with version 8 or subscribing to go forward.

You have done more to boost the ranks of KiCad users than you realize.

Your call.

Rick Brown
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168760 is a reply to message #168758] Fri, 20 January 2017 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
We all purchased it at one point or another with the expectation that there will be continuation under the same license conditions. I guess I had more use out of it than you did but I still feel betrayed with the changes. Obviously EAGLE expect that they will force us to the subscription model but that's where they are wrong. Small companies and hobbyists are a lot more flexible in changing their preferred tools. In fact the clock of customer departure is already ticking. Just as I type this I am experimenting with KiCAD after seeing some cool features that my version of EAGLE doesn't have. I'd still like to buy an EAGLE upgrade if it was available today but come next month, after I have completed a project in KiCAD, I probably will never bother to look back.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168764 is a reply to message #168760] Fri, 20 January 2017 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
Nice to know Autodesk may be willing to waive any late fees, once Eagle has them in place:

Re: AutoCAD Subscription Late Fees!

08-08-2013 02:38 PM in reply to: jtomkinson

Autodesk is waiving the Autodesk late fee if you meet the criteria to late renew under current Autodesk policy. Please contact your reseller and ask them for more details or feel free to contact Microsol Resources Corporation at 888-768-7568 and advise reception you need information on Autodesk late Subscription renewal.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168765 is a reply to message #168764] Fri, 20 January 2017 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 29
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
That post is from 2013, totally different topic.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #168766 is a reply to message #168765] Fri, 20 January 2017 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 186
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
That post is from 2013, totally different topic.
Not once there is a late fee for subscription renewal!

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168768 is a reply to message #168756] Sat, 21 January 2017 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1762
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 21/01/2017 8:51 a.m., David Harris wrote:
> I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it.
>
> Like others who have already posted, I have a Premium license. The ROI to continue under a subscription scheme is not there for me.
>
> I didn't even know about KiCAD until now. Reviewing their webpage makes me want to try it . 32 layers, trace tuning, hmm. There are downsides to free software mainly "fast" technical support and "fast" bug fixes (although this isn't always the case). However, the new pricing structure has me looking at KiCAD (free being icing on the cake).
>
> Maybe after this revolt, Autodesk/Eagle will go back to the old perpetual license structure; Or at least "de-cloud" the license so you don't need an active subscription to use the revision you already have on your workstation(s). At that point, I'll re-evaluate an upgrade to the latest.
>
> As of now, I'm evaluating KiCAD and we'll see how well it works for me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave H.

Hi
Dave as I understand it, your paid v7.5 licence is applicable to v7.7.
You should be able to load up 7.7 and apply the licence details you
acquired around v7.5 time

Jorge should be able to confirm this.

HTH
Warren
>


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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168777 is a reply to message #168749] Sat, 21 January 2017 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1451
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 20.01.2017 um 19:42 schrieb Jorge Garcia:
> On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:
>> On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
>>> Tom Kopec <noreply-143408@element14.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my
>>>> existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here:
>>>> Last
>>>> week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it
>>>> still
>>>> works.
>>>
>>> Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade!
>>>
>>> Another showstopper.
>>>
>>
>> What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for
>> V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0
>> to even try V8.
>>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down.
> Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have
> perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has
> always been.
>
> Things only change with V8 going forward.
>
> hth,
> Jorge Garcia

IMHO not quite correct.
This is part license aggreement from Version 7.7.0:

"
1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee
with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to
Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any
other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to
be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception
for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights
with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty
(120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred
twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception
for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of
any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version,
and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no
longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be
Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any
such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy
or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all
copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require
Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous
Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk,
destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were
acquired.
"


--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168791 is a reply to message #168749] Sat, 21 January 2017 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1762
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
On 21/01/2017 7:42 a.m., Jorge Garcia wrote:
> On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:
>> On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
>>> Tom Kopec <noreply-143408@element14.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my
>>>> existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here:
>>>> Last
>>>> week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it
>>>> still
>>>> works.
>>>
>>> Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade!
>>>
>>> Another showstopper.
>>>
>>
>> What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for
>> V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0
>> to even try V8.
>>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down.
> Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have
> perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has
> always been.
>
> Things only change with V8 going forward.
>
> hth,
> Jorge Garcia


No, that does not help.

Should one write a ULP in the version 8 era it needs to be tested on
earlier releases, should there have been any ulp additions along the way.

Being able to test in an earlier version of v8 will be problematical if
one has kept updating within their subscription'

I do suspect it may not even be possible for future eagles to be
co-installed. In that case you will need a secondary PC that has not had
upgrades applied so you do have an 8.0 to test on.

ULPs and the community are very connected. Break one and you break the other

I notice you have to 'hard' install v8. Now I cannot do, as I did for
7.7 and earlier where I don't install but rename the .exe to.zip, unzip
and run it isolated from the other earlier versions. You do loose
eaglecon but it is my preference.

Warren


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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168795 is a reply to message #168791] Sat, 21 January 2017 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Morrison
Messages: 1129
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Sat, 21 January 2017 21:42


I notice you have to 'hard' install v8. Now I cannot do, as I did for
7.7 and earlier where I don't install but rename the .exe to.zip, unzip
and run it isolated from the other earlier versions. You do loose
eaglecon but it is my preference.

Warren


I noticed that too. Luckily on Mac I can just rename/move the folder to where I want it with no registry to edit.

Having multiple versions of EAGLE on one machine is absolutely vital for _normal_, professional operation. I don't blindly go from one version to the next, especially in the middle of projects. I'll install a new version, create some gerbers from older projects and compare output to ensure that nothing funny is going on. That's a bare minimum. No professional worth his/her salt is going to just jump blindly to a new version and delete an earlier version.

Cheers,

James.


James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital
http://www.stratforddigital.ca
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #168798 is a reply to message #168730] Sun, 22 January 2017 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Matt Berggren
Messages: 34
Registered: November 2016
Member
This doesnt apply to this scenario as you previous license was under a Cadsoft license agreement.  We have no authority or interest in doing anything to that license as it was a different legal framework under which you made that agreement.  Under subscription, there is no "major" release and thus that clause would never apply ...i.e. version 8.0 of EAGLE is only a version number for convenience...as we move forward, this is just EAGLE and there is no "Upgrade" (only an "Update") and thus nothing to force anyone to stop using an older license.

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