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Could someone check my design? [message #163583] Wed, 07 October 2015 12:02 Go to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Hi Guys
I'm totally new to this. I'm trying to build a 4 channel opamp (boost my
signal about 100x)
I'm hoping someone has the time to quickly check my design and see if it
makes sense and perhaps let me know how to improve it.

Thanks
Jacob

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163589 is a reply to message #163583] Wed, 07 October 2015 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Ellison
Messages: 74
Registered: November 2013
Member
Just have a look at your component placement. For example, switching the
positions of R1 and R2 may improve your track routing.

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163604 is a reply to message #163583] Thu, 08 October 2015 06:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 07.10.2015 um 14:02 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
> Hi Guys
> I'm totally new to this. I'm trying to build a 4 channel opamp (boost my
> signal about 100x)
> I'm hoping someone has the time to quickly check my design and see if it
> makes sense and perhaps let me know how to improve it.
>
> Thanks
> Jacob
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162669
>
> Attachments:
> opamp.zip
>

No capacitors?

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163605 is a reply to message #163604] Thu, 08 October 2015 07:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
You mean to filter the input?

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163607 is a reply to message #163605] Thu, 08 October 2015 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Hi,

At least capacitors should be added on the supply...
I don"t know the purpose of your circuit but you should add at least a
small one capacitor (10 to 100 nF) placed near the power supply input
pins of the LM324, and a electrolytic caacitor (few µF) rignt after the
supply input connector.
En large 24V supply trace, and for the GND you can enlarge the trace or
better add a GND plane (polygon).

Guillaume

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163608 is a reply to message #163607] Thu, 08 October 2015 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
The opamp is meant to amplify a 7-50mV signal around 100 times so I can
reliably read it with a National Instruments DAQ.

I'm sorry I'm such a newbee, any and all help is really appreciated!
I'll try and add some capacitors to the diagram and see if I can work
out how to add a GND plane :-)

I'll be back ;-)

Thanks
Jacob

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163610 is a reply to message #163608] Thu, 08 October 2015 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Hmmm not sure i got the capcitors right. ;-)

How's this version?

Thanks again
Jacob

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163611 is a reply to message #163610] Thu, 08 October 2015 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 08.10.2015 um 14:43 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
> Hmmm not sure i got the capcitors right. ;-)
>
> How's this version?
>
> Thanks again
> Jacob
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162771
>
> Attachments:
> test4.zip
>


Where is your attachment???
Anyway I didn't like the many junctions and the separated connectors in
the schematic,
so I messed around in your design (as an example of course). Same went
for the board ;-)
I also changed the width of the tracks, because I suppose you want to
etch yourself...

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
  • Attachment: test3-1.7z
    (Size: 25.66KB, Downloaded 785 times)
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163613 is a reply to message #163611] Thu, 08 October 2015 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Hi Joern
Maybe I'm getting it wrong. But I don't see any files from you?
Thanks
-Jacob

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163614 is a reply to message #163610] Thu, 08 October 2015 16:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
> Hmmm not sure i got the capcitors right. ;-)

Partially...

For the 5µF capacitor: it's connected correctly in schematic, but I'm
not sure you will found a value of  5µF, but a value of 4,7µF, 10µF,
22µF, 47µF... are standardized values . Did you check if you use the
good package ? often this king of capacitor have a cylinder shape, and
it polarized (+ shoufd be connected to +24V, and - to GND)
A good advice would be to found a capacitor (buy it or at least found
were you will buy it), so you be sure of the value, the dimensions, the
shape, if it's polarized or not....
The physical position on the board doesn't really mater for that
capacitor.

For the 2 others, It's NOT OK: you need only one capacitor, and it
should be in parallel not in series with LM324 :
     -> in schematic : you connect the +V pin (pad number 4) of the
LM324 directly to +24V, and do the same with the GND pin (pad number
11), connect directly to GND. Then you add your 100nF capacitor and
connect one pin to +24V, the other one to GND
     ->  in board, you place physically this capacitor near the LM324,
the nearest is the best.

The role of these capacitor is :
- filter noise coming from your supply.
- provide a local reserve of energy for you amp : when the amp will need
to swing is output, it will sink current, and will need *fast*, and if
there is no capacitor around, the current will flow from your supply
through your cable and the copper of your board. With ideal wire no
problem. but in real life, they have a little resistance and inductance:
both will slow down current flow, and the voltage of the supply near the
LM324 will goes down....

That why a good practice is to add :
- 1 huge capacitor (10µ - 100µF) for the board: it's provide energy for
'slow' consumption raises, and filter low frequency noise from the power
supply...
- 1 little capacitor for each integrated circuit (chip), near the chip, 
for fast consumption variations, and filter for higher frequency
noise...

This is only a very very simplified explanation and complex design need
more than this little cook book, but in you case that could be a good
start !
That also why you need to have larger wire for supply than for the other
signal.

Guillaume.

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163617 is a reply to message #163613] Fri, 09 October 2015 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 08.10.2015 um 17:38 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
> Hi Joern
> Maybe I'm getting it wrong. But I don't see any files from you?
> Thanks
> -Jacob
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162826
>

I attached it but I suppose it is the glorious interconnection between
the newsgroup and element 14 that never works since years...
Next try now...

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
  • Attachment: test3-1.7z
    (Size: 25.66KB, Downloaded 749 times)
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163618 is a reply to message #163617] Fri, 09 October 2015 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 09.10.2015 um 10:42 schrieb Joern Paschedag:
> Am 08.10.2015 um 17:38 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
>> Hi Joern
>> Maybe I'm getting it wrong. But I don't see any files from you?
>> Thanks
>> -Jacob
>>
>> --
>> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
>> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162826
>>
>
> I attached it but I suppose it is the glorious interconnection between
> the newsgroup and element 14 that never works since years...
> Next try now...
>

No, sorry it didn't go throu, maybe because I'm not registered at
element14 .
And I'm not interested to register there.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163619 is a reply to message #163618] Fri, 09 October 2015 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 09.10.2015 11:12, Joern Paschedag wrote:
> Am 09.10.2015 um 10:42 schrieb Joern Paschedag:
>> Am 08.10.2015 um 17:38 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
>>> Hi Joern
>>> Maybe I'm getting it wrong. But I don't see any files from you?
>>> Thanks
>>> -Jacob
>>>
>>> --
>>> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
>>> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162826
>>>
>>
>> I attached it but I suppose it is the glorious interconnection between
>> the newsgroup and element 14 that never works since years...
>> Next try now...
>>
>
> No, sorry it didn't go throu, maybe because I'm not registered at
> element14 .
> And I'm not interested to register there.
>

You can find them here
http://www.eaglecentral.ca/forums/index.php/t/51848/5abd43c14367c14cffef482 390e897d4/
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163622 is a reply to message #163619] Fri, 09 October 2015 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jacob Thastrup
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Once again thank you guys!!
Guillaume, thank you for the explanation it really helps!

I've added a ground plane to Joern's design... does that make sense?

I hope you can see the attached file..otherwise I'll go register at
eaglecentral as well.
-Jacob

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163630 is a reply to message #163622] Sat, 10 October 2015 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Hi,

That last design is better, the ground plane is OK.. You remove the big
capacitor  (your 5µF) I suggested to check the value and the package,
but not t remove it ? If it was one of my design I would  put a 10µF
electrolytic capacitor between GND and +24V, just right after the supply
connector...

Nice work ....

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163631 is a reply to message #163622] Sat, 10 October 2015 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 09.10.2015 um 18:34 schrieb Jacob Thastrup:
> Once again thank you guys!!
> Guillaume, thank you for the explanation it really helps!
>
> I've added a ground plane to Joern's design... does that make sense?
>
> I hope you can see the attached file..otherwise I'll go register at
> eaglecentral as well.
> -Jacob
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> http://www.element14.com/community/message/162904
>
> Attachments:
> test5.zip
>
You should go there anyway. It is just the better link to the cadsoft
newsgroups ;-)
They don't have trouble with attachments (as you have seen).
BTW my "design" was just a suggestion.
Maybe you should add an electrolytic capacitor in general and foresee
some holes to screw this print somewhere.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163633 is a reply to message #163622] Sat, 10 October 2015 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Pollum
Messages: 177
Registered: April 2005
Location: Virginia, USA
Senior Member
Jacob Thastrup wrote on Fri, 09 October 2015 12:34
Once again thank you guys!!
Guillaume, thank you for the explanation it really helps!

I've added a ground plane to Joern's design... does that make sense?

I hope you can see the attached file..otherwise I'll go register at
eaglecentral as well.
-Jacob

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I think there should be a ground connection for each channel. In other words, you will need 3-pin instead of 2-pin connectors. Otherwise your only ground connection is through the power supply connector. The ground pin should be between each input and output pin. I agree with others that you should have a cap across the power supply terminals. Also, on your layout, if you switch to a finer grid (i.e. 10 mil aka(0.01")), you can move some traces slightly and improve the ground plane near the left end of the chip (also changing the polygon width to 12 mils helps). If you swap the ends of R5 and R6, then you can have a single trace for OUT3, instead of 2 traces. You can do the same thing for the other channels.
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163639 is a reply to message #163630] Sun, 11 October 2015 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JacobT
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Guillaume barrey[1
wrote on Sat, 10 October 2015 05:53]Hi,

That last design is better, the ground plane is OK.. You remove the big
capacitor  (your 5µF) I suggested to check the value and the package,
but not t remove it ? If it was one of my design I would  put a 10µF
electrolytic capacitor between GND and +24V, just right after the supply
connector...

Nice work ....

Ah ok hehe, I've added the 10uF capasitor now.


Quote:

I think there should be a ground connection for each channel. In other words, you will need 3-pin instead of 2-pin connectors. Otherwise your only ground connection is through the power supply connector. The ground pin should be between each input and output pin.

I'm not sure I understand this bit.
The signal I'm trying to amplify is coming from small oxygen cells (galvanic cells). If I understand what you are suggesting, is that I use the GND from each cell to connect to their respective inverting input of the opamp? My original idea was to tie all the GND lines from the cells into the same GND connector (the one I also connect the power supply to).
Potentially a stupid question.. will that work? I don't need to ground everything "together"?

Quote:

If you swap the ends of R5 and R6, then you can have a single trace for OUT3, instead of 2 traces. You can do the same thing for the other channels.


Cool, that does look better Smile

Once again thanks for all the help!!

-Jacob
  • Attachment: test5-3.zip
    (Size: 38.58KB, Downloaded 771 times)
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163640 is a reply to message #163639] Sun, 11 October 2015 12:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Hi,

The sensor cell will produce a voltage, between the 2 signals :
- the signal you will connect to your amplifier input
- and the GND.
Only the voltage between these 2 signals (the difference) is important.
The current that will flow out from your cell into the input of the
amplifier is exactly the same than the current flowing from the GND of
your board into the GND pin of your cell.
So, the role played  by the 2 wires of the oxygen cell (signal and GND) 
is equivalent, and there is no reason to have a different path (except
if GND is also used to supply the sensor see (*) ).

On the amplifier side : it amplifies the *difference* between the input
signal and the GND plane, the GND plane is a REFERENCE.

If instead of connecting directly the GND of sensor to your board, you
connect it to a point away from the plane (name it STAR point), with all
the other sensor GND and supply GND, then you connect this start point
to your board with a single wire. On the paper this will work....
but....
In this last GND segment (wire from the GND plane and star point)  you
will have the sum of all the currents of all sensors, plus the current
drained by the amplifier it self (and this last one is far more
important than the others).
Where is the problem ?
The problem is that the copper is a good conductor, but not an ideal one
!
You will have a little voltage difference between your GND plane and the
start point, that will be dependent of that current, and the length of
the wire, and so amplifier REFERENCE will not be exactly the reference
of the sensor.

In other word, each signal will be polluted with the signal of the other
cell and the consumption of the amplifier...

There is also other advantages of using same path for your sensor: you
can use twisted pair wire, that way you reduce noise, specially if your
sensor are far away from the borad.

Just one thing (*) : I don't know your sensor: is this sensor need a
supply ? How this supply is wired? is the GND of sensor is only a output
reference or also used for the return path of the supply ? because in
that case you have to figure how best can the GND be wired.... there is
no magic solution, and we can help you unless you give us more info...

Sorry with this very quick fast ultra simplified explanation... and if
you want to have more fun... you can also question yourself about the
output of your amplifier : How the GND path mcan be optimised and wired,
on the output side (I suppose you will connect it to an acquisition
device...)

Guillaume

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163642 is a reply to message #163640] Sun, 11 October 2015 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JacobT
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Guillaume barrey[1
wrote on Sun, 11 October 2015 08:04]Hi,

The sensor cell will produce a voltage, between the 2 signals :
- the signal you will connect to your amplifier input
- and the GND.
Only the voltage between these 2 signals (the difference) is important.
The current that will flow out from your cell into the input of the
amplifier is exactly the same than the current flowing from the GND of
your board into the GND pin of your cell.
So, the role played  by the 2 wires of the oxygen cell (signal and GND) 
is equivalent, and there is no reason to have a different path (except
if GND is also used to supply the sensor see (*) ).

On the amplifier side : it amplifies the *difference* between the input
signal and the GND plane, the GND plane is a REFERENCE.

If instead of connecting directly the GND of sensor to your board, you
connect it to a point away from the plane (name it STAR point), with all
the other sensor GND and supply GND, then you connect this start point
to your board with a single wire. On the paper this will work....
but....
In this last GND segment (wire from the GND plane and star point)  you
will have the sum of all the currents of all sensors, plus the current
drained by the amplifier it self (and this last one is far more
important than the others).
Where is the problem ?
The problem is that the copper is a good conductor, but not an ideal one
!
You will have a little voltage difference between your GND plane and the
start point, that will be dependent of that current, and the length of
the wire, and so amplifier REFERENCE will not be exactly the reference
of the sensor.

In other word, each signal will be polluted with the signal of the other
cell and the consumption of the amplifier...

There is also other advantages of using same path for your sensor: you
can use twisted pair wire, that way you reduce noise, specially if your
sensor are far away from the borad.

Just one thing (*) : I don't know your sensor: is this sensor need a
supply ? How this supply is wired? is the GND of sensor is only a output
reference or also used for the return path of the supply ? because in
that case you have to figure how best can the GND be wired.... there is
no magic solution, and we can help you unless you give us more info...

Sorry with this very quick fast ultra simplified explanation... and if
you want to have more fun... you can also question yourself about the
output of your amplifier : How the GND path mcan be optimised and wired,
on the output side (I suppose you will connect it to an acquisition
device...)

Guillaume

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Hi Guillaume
Thank you again for your reply.
Just to make sure I understand. I should still connect all the GND signals together, just at different points on the GND plane?

The Sensor does not require any power, it generates it itself though a chemical reaction (dependent on the oxygen fraction).

The amplified signal will be going to an acquisition device, should I also wire their GND "away" from the power supply GND? I guess I could wire them in the same terminal as the GND from each sensor?

Thanks
Jacob
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163647 is a reply to message #163642] Mon, 12 October 2015 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Hi,
Yes you understand very well, all GND will be connected together. Here
we only speak about where physically it's better to do it. You can  do
it every where, it will work, but some location can reduce noise and
measurement error, and other will be introduce more noise.

Since your cell need no power, the best will be to use a *+twisted pair
wire+* for each cell, and  connect it directly to the board, so for each
channel you need to add an extra connection for the GND of the cell.

For the acquisition device, it's dependent on if it have an extra pin
for GND or not.... If yes, you use a separate +*twisted pair wire*+ for
each channel and use this extra pin.
if not, then you can also use +*twisted pair wire*+ but on the
acquisition device side you connect all the GND to the acquisition
device GND pin.

In both case on your amplifier board, you choose a 3 pins connector for
each channel: input, GND and output. On the GND pin, you connect the GND
wire from your cell and the GND wire from the acquisition device
together.

Guillaume

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163654 is a reply to message #163647] Mon, 12 October 2015 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JacobT
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Guillaume barrey[1
wrote on Mon, 12 October 2015 05:20]Hi,
Yes you understand very well, all GND will be connected together. Here
we only speak about where physically it's better to do it. You can  do
it every where, it will work, but some location can reduce noise and
measurement error, and other will be introduce more noise.

Since your cell need no power, the best will be to use a *+twisted pair
wire+* for each cell, and  connect it directly to the board, so for each
channel you need to add an extra connection for the GND of the cell.

For the acquisition device, it's dependent on if it have an extra pin
for GND or not.... If yes, you use a separate +*twisted pair wire*+ for
each channel and use this extra pin.
if not, then you can also use +*twisted pair wire*+ but on the
acquisition device side you connect all the GND to the acquisition
device GND pin.

In both case on your amplifier board, you choose a 3 pins connector for
each channel: input, GND and output. On the GND pin, you connect the GND
wire from your cell and the GND wire from the acquisition device
together.

Guillaume

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OK, cool thanks.

So version god knows what is attached Wink

(I must admit I think the traces on this version are a lot cleaner than some of my previous ones)

With regard to twisted pair I guess I could use some CAT 5e Ethernet cable I have lying around (somewhere).

Thanks once again!
-Jacob
  • Attachment: test6.zip
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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163679 is a reply to message #163654] Wed, 14 October 2015 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Guillaume barrey[1]
Messages: 260
Registered: July 2013
Senior Member
Hi,

That's Great !
Just a last little advice for the GND plane.
When my board is almost finish, I do some little adjustment to be sure
that my GND plane will be good.... It's hard to explain with my poor
English....(sorry to be a French frog:p)
I hide all layer except the dimension, via, pads and the copper layer on
which I work, and I run a *ratsnest* command to process the polygons
Then you use the *show* command and select the polygon (in your case you
only have GND). The polygon is highlighted so you can see it well.
Now you try to imagine how the current can flow from here and there...
Sometime you will see that for connecting to  point that are not really
far from each other, the current need to do a huge travel because the
plane is interrupted by some other tracks. Sometime it's easy to reduce
drastically the effective distance just by moving a little bit a track
or a part.

In your example, the +24V track going from C1 to IC1 completely cut he
polygon. If you move down a little this track, the GND plane will be not
cut any more...

That way, I check all the little improvement I can do, and some time
it's not enough, so I reduce the isolation or the wire of the polygon.

I do that for all polygons, layer by layer (copper layers of course).

But any way good job !

Guillaume.

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Re: Could someone check my design? [message #163799 is a reply to message #163679] Sat, 24 October 2015 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JacobT
Messages: 4
Registered: October 2015
Junior Member
Guillaume barrey[1
wrote on Wed, 14 October 2015 13:10]Hi,

That's Great !
Just a last little advice for the GND plane.
When my board is almost finish, I do some little adjustment to be sure
that my GND plane will be good.... It's hard to explain with my poor
English....(sorry to be a French frog:p)
I hide all layer except the dimension, via, pads and the copper layer on
which I work, and I run a *ratsnest* command to process the polygons
Then you use the *show* command and select the polygon (in your case you
only have GND). The polygon is highlighted so you can see it well.
Now you try to imagine how the current can flow from here and there...
Sometime you will see that for connecting to  point that are not really
far from each other, the current need to do a huge travel because the
plane is interrupted by some other tracks. Sometime it's easy to reduce
drastically the effective distance just by moving a little bit a track
or a part.

In your example, the +24V track going from C1 to IC1 completely cut he
polygon. If you move down a little this track, the GND plane will be not
cut any more...

That way, I check all the little improvement I can do, and some time
it's not enough, so I reduce the isolation or the wire of the polygon.

I do that for all polygons, layer by layer (copper layers of course).

But any way good job !

Guillaume.

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Hi Guys
Sorry for the slow response.
Thank you all for all the help. I feel I have learned a lot already!
Best wishes
Jacob
Re: Could someone check my design? [message #164494 is a reply to message #163622] Sun, 20 December 2015 14:20 Go to previous message
Thomas Hambck
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2015
Junior Member
hi,

I've viewed your layout and edit it.

some tips for your next pcb
* first of all: place parts, route power supply & gnd, critical tracks
like bus and the all the other things
* layout the pcb by following your nets of the schematics
* try parts in different ways THT (horizontal / vertical) or SMD
* route the tracks as short as possible
* place holes to fix or parts to screw your pcb on something

An example off yor pcb with short tracks, etc. is attached. ;)

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Attachments:
Test5_edit.zip
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