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icon8.gif  Help? [message #163406] Sun, 27 September 2015 00:20 Go to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Hi, I am new to this program. I have tried everything and can't figure out why nothing I do is working.

I need a simple adapter board. I watched videos and everything. I am trying to simply make a small board that has 42 holes for a m27c160 eprom to fit a 36 hole board.

I have went here http://schematicpal.com/ and downloaded the eprom M27C801-100B1 it shows two boxes the left red box and the right green circles in the black box. I can only place the red box in the schematic when I need the other one to just place the holes for me. When I click on circles they are not circles but pads, I need holes!

Plus the eprom clearly has 42 legs yet the only Library file you can place in is missing majority of pins. This blows my mind it's not even accurate? You go to the board view and magically it shows the entire chip but completely useless as it will not let you run traces, that has to be done in the schematic where they don't exist!!!

I have tried drawing circles "holes" manually but when I switch to board view it does not bring them in? I tried grouping the 42 circles together as that is what I need for the 27c160 eprom but it does nothing.

I can't believe how difficult this is. I want to order these boards but I need a gerber file. I could whip this thing out in paint in like 10 minutes, here I have wasted countless hours trying to decipher this program that will not do anything I want it to.

I think learning a new language would be easier them deciphering this program.
Re: Help? [message #163409 is a reply to message #163406] Sun, 27 September 2015 02:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shabaz
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2012
Senior Member
Are you sure you're using the right software for your particular desired
workflow?
It doesn't sound like it.
EAGLE is all about schematics and then building a circuit board from
there.
Schematics parts often don't use the same number of pins as a physical
part.
If you just want to lay 'holes', then there may be other software out
there that
you could be using - EAGLE would be extreme overkill for that -
although it could do it, you'd have to plough through the user
documentation -
it's not intended to a MS Paint replacement and so the workflow isn't as
simple
with EAGLE.
By the way, your part number M27C801-100B1 really is a 32-pin device,
not a 42-pin device.

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Re: Help? [message #163410 is a reply to message #163409] Sun, 27 September 2015 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
I know the M27C801-100B1 is a 32 dip, however it is the chip I currently use right now for my boards. I need to move up to the bigger chip which is why I need the adapter board made. I only chose that from the library as it was all there was and I knew the hole sizes and spacing was what I needed.

I was hoping I could just lay that chip out twice or something and over lap the pins or just add the extra holes needed. I'm just going to call it a day and pay somebody to do this. I really wanted to do it myself but I can't waste all this time into this program.

As far as other programs, maybe but I'm pretty burnt out and annoyed right now that I don't think I want to waste any more time learning another program that may not be correct for what I need done.

Thanks for the reply. It's nice to get some input from someone.
Re: Help? [message #163411 is a reply to message #163410] Sun, 27 September 2015 03:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Actually I may be onto something. I imported a header pin file and I am using that for the spacing. I just added that component to a schematic and switched to board.

I am now placing holes in the exact layout of the header pins and using my board and chips I have on hand my chips pins are exactly 7 holes apart so 7 header pin spaces. I now figured out the group thing. Select a group and right clicking I can move all the holes to the correct spots.

I'm going to measure it all and place my holes accordingly and then run wires between the holes, I hope that counts as traces lol.
Re: Help? [message #163412 is a reply to message #163411] Sun, 27 September 2015 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shabaz
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2012
Senior Member
This is like using the unsharpened edge of the knife to cut pizza. It
may work or may not, but it is not ideal - it is a hack.
Expect to invest several days of time with the EAGLE PDF documentation
(and walking through online tutorials or videos -
there are thousands of them, EAGLE is one of the more popular packages)
if you want to do it the right method which involves
these topics: parts creation (symbol, package, device) and library
management and manual routing.
Your method of searching for the nearest part and just using it as-is on
the schematic as-is and overlaying holes for example
is not popular because it is not scalable (once a board has more than a
handful of parts on it) and error-prone for large
boards (it will violate error rules and design rules unless you manually
clear them).
It might work for your 1-component board, but it is not something EAGLE
was designed to intentionally handle without
flagging errors.

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Re: Help? [message #163414 is a reply to message #163412] Sun, 27 September 2015 05:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Well I am at a loss. Besides finding someone to do this for me doing it myself is the only option. Since I am not pro at this stuff I can only do what I can do. I need this board. I have started on it and I think I can make it work. Yes "make it work" is all I am shooing for at this point.

I do not know of any other program to use that would be any simpler or different. I still need to d a bit more research about connecting traces through the backside of the board as there is not enough room on one side to run all the traces.

This is my progress; hack job or not, one way or another I need an adapter board so I can make money. I increased the hole sizes and everything seems to scale according to the board size and all. Not all the holes need to be connected but more do and most will have to route to backside of board.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/icemanxp300/ssssssss_zpsnczob0na.jpg
Re: Help? [message #163415 is a reply to message #163414] Sun, 27 September 2015 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shabaz
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2012
Senior Member
Well, looks like you're kind-of getting there.
Consider using SIL part MA07-1 (it is in library con-lstb), you could
just search for that in the add component dialog, since it is 7 SIL pins
then three of them will be 21 pins for one side of your component, and
add another three for 42 pins total.
Do all that in the schematic view, not the board view, and then use the
'Net' icon, _not_ the 'Wire' icon in the toolbar, to draw the lines
connecting it to wherever you want. You can flip to the board view at
any time, and see the 'airwaves'.
Once you're done, then in the board view, you can convert the airwaves
into routed tracks manually, by clicking on the 'Route Manually" icon in
the toolbar. You can flip between top and bottom layer any time with
that tool and it will insert a plated through hole via automatically.

That is a quick description, you'll really need to spend a day or two
with tutorials/videos to understand it better, there is no quick
solution.

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Re: Help? [message #163416 is a reply to message #163410] Sun, 27 September 2015 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Pearce
Messages: 481
Registered: September 2012
Senior Member
On 27/09/15 03:49, Greg wrote:
> As far as other programs, maybe but I'm pretty burnt out and annoyed right
> now that I don't think I want to waste any more time learning another
> program that may not be correct for what I need done.

It seems to me you've not made any effort to learn this one, nor to
learn the basic principles of the task this one is designed for. Now you
are fully at liberty to not want to put the effort in, but if you do
take that tack then you have a moral duty to accept the blame yourself
and NOT BLAME THE TOOL. It's a perfectly good tool, you just don't want
to use it right. Like the blunt edge of the pizza knife, or the
screwdriver as a hammer.

The work flow in electronics design IS ALWAYS to start with a schematic,
select components with appropriate packages, create library parts as
required, and only then start to worry about layout. THIS DOES STILL
APPLY in the trivial case you have, regardless of whether you think "oh
it's just..." - because even that statement is a description of the
schematic you should start by drawing. Or rather, the statement is a
vague, hand-wavy marketing overview of the requirement. You really need
to formalise that requirement by drawing a schematic. Only then can you
consider how to implement it on a PCB.

If you give up on your preconception that "it's too trivial" and admit
that for a proper job you need to be precise in your requirements, then
you'll find that Eagle does help a lot. Sure, it's a non-trivial
learning curve, but then all such tools are.
Re: Help? [message #163417 is a reply to message #163415] Sun, 27 September 2015 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
I had to redo that and I did it wrong LOL. It's actually getting funny now. I made it so my chip would sit on top of adapter board but that doesn''t work because of how I have to solder the header pins. Now I have to redo it all.

I may try your advice this time as I ran wires and placed vias manually and just toggled between top and bottom when I ran the wires. This is def. a learning experience lol. I will get this done tomorrow shouldn't take me too long now that I have done a few times.

Will it not work if I do it all in board view or is it just easier to do it in schematic? The problem was I initially placed 6 of those headers but it did not distinguish them at all when I went to board view. I would have to rename or something so I knew which was what.

I can try doing it in schematic view as I have a better idea of what I am doing now. we'll see.
Re: Help? [message #163418 is a reply to message #163416] Sun, 27 September 2015 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Rob Pearce wrote on Sun, 27 September 2015 03:48
On 27/09/15 03:49, Greg wrote:
> As far as other programs, maybe but I'm pretty burnt out and annoyed right
> now that I don't think I want to waste any more time learning another
> program that may not be correct for what I need done.

It seems to me you've not made any effort to learn this one, nor to
learn the basic principles of the task this one is designed for. Now you
are fully at liberty to not want to put the effort in, but if you do
take that tack then you have a moral duty to accept the blame yourself
and NOT BLAME THE TOOL. It's a perfectly good tool, you just don't want
to use it right. Like the blunt edge of the pizza knife, or the
screwdriver as a hammer.


Dude burnt out because I have spent countless hours trying to learn this program w/zero success. Don't say I did not put forth any effort. If creating a library part was simple I would have done that. I may be able to now as I know more about the program. My main confusion in beginning was ignorantly selecting circle instead of hole lol.

I have never used a program like this before so yeah it is kicking my ... I imagine most people have some kind of assistance such as a teacher in school helping them. I'm on my pc watching videos and reading web pages trying to understand this thing.
Re: Help? [message #163421 is a reply to message #163418] Sun, 27 September 2015 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
This is a waste of my time. I don't think I even did it right last night. I need pads around the circles. There is no option to add a pad. This is just unreal.

I added (6) 7 pin headers and 6(6) 6 pin header and those have pads, except when you draw a wire from them on the schematic view the wires don't show in the board layout.

I seriously feel like an idiot. I am way better off waiting for someone to respond and do this for me.

You say this program is easy, well it does not seem easy to me. I can't even get a trace ran.
Re: Help? [message #163422 is a reply to message #163421] Sun, 27 September 2015 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Well after watching more videos of this program it appears what I need is to "define an electrical connection". Well that option is NOT available in my version, it is no where to be found.

Yes this program sucks! Must have to buy the real version in order for it to be a useful program. It's kind of like this website. Their is NO edit available anywhere, so you have to make a new post every time.

Wow I will never ever recommend this program to anyone it is completely useless.
Re: Help? [message #163423 is a reply to message #163422] Sun, 27 September 2015 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shabaz
Messages: 188
Registered: October 2012
Senior Member
Hi Greg,

You could pay someone to do this for you if you're not prepared to do it
yourself, or you may be
better off with alternative software - I don't know what though, because
no-one works in this manner
any more. Adding pads individually went out with the
sticky-backed-crepe-paper-on-transparency-film
methods of the 1970's.
Somebody (e.g. a student) would probably do it for you in EAGLE for a
few hundred dollars - it is probably just an
evenings work including the time to discuss it.

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Re: Help? [message #163424 is a reply to message #163423] Sun, 27 September 2015 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Yes I am going to have to pay someone. Maybe pads was the wrong term to use. I am simply talking about the round rings on ever through hole.

All I want is 42 holes cut w/the copper rings around them that connect to traces that will run to the other 36 holes w/rings around those.

It will be very similar to this board. It will only have 1 eprom connected instead of 2 like this board has. The board will be shaped a bit different as well. This is however what I need, just different chip and size. But that is the boards I will be connecting these to.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/icemanxp300/adapter_zpsrn66oleo.jpg
Re: Help? [message #163426 is a reply to message #163422] Sun, 27 September 2015 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logyx
Messages: 34
Registered: May 2015
Member
On 27/09/2015 18:21, Greg wrote:

> Yes this program sucks! Must have to buy the real version in order for it
> to be a useful program. It's kind of like this website. Their is NO edit
> available anywhere, so you have to make a new post every time.
>
> Wow I will never ever recommend this program to anyone it is completely
> useless.

I truly sympathize with you because I've been where you are not long
ago. I still struggle, but not as much because after a lot of
frustrations and learning I finally have a general overview and grasp of
how it all works. That makes it easier to learn more.
Eagle is (even the free version, which I use as well), like most other
professional and specialized tools, an advanced application which isn't
self-explanetory like a web browser, word processor or email program or
whatever but takes a lot of time and effort to learn.

I suggest you either hang in there to get an overview and understanding
of the software by reading web tutorials, tutorial videos on Youtube
etc. and of course practising yourself, but if you only need to have a
single PCB done I agree with what others have said: pay someone to get
the job done, because for that alone I would say the learning curve
isn't worth it.

L.
Re: Help? [message #163427 is a reply to message #163426] Sun, 27 September 2015 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Thanks lol. At this point it has zero to do with $$, and is more so principal now. I generally don't have too many problems learning stuff and I can pick stuff up pretty quick, not this. I even took cad in high school.

It is driving me nuts. I watched the tutorial on youtube from Jeremy Blum. That helped like crazy, however For the life of me I can't figure out how to draw a simple freaking trace from a to b!

The header pin I upload has 7 spots for holes but in schematic view it is one entire structure, you can't define the individual holes or I don't know how. I can run wires, net wires, buses, and all in schematic but once I go to board view not a single one transfers with the components like he did in the video.

Once in board view it will not let me run any wires as it says that needs to be done in schematic, seriously I want to punch the person who wrote this damn thing! You can do this but nothing happens and if you don't do that you can't do it later.
Re: Help? [message #163428 is a reply to message #163427] Sun, 27 September 2015 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
I finally got a wire to show I want a cookie! I can not believe this program is sooooo anal that it required my net wire to attach to the very end of the pin lead it shows in schematic view, unbelievable. Further more unless you have the grid size adjusted small enough you can never place the wire on the exact end spot that it needs.

This is absolutely a horrific experience and very poor programming. I took some programming courses a bit awhile ago and every time I go to a webpage and it ask to input data such as a birthdate and I have to manually click each box, that is the same principle here. All it takes is a simple line of code so when you enter your data in box a it automatically goes to box b for you.

This program is very picky and not user friendly one bit!
Re: Help? [message #163429 is a reply to message #163428] Mon, 28 September 2015 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
I sure do hope this is correct. I just ran connections all in schematic. I went into net classes and made width .5mm, drill 1mm, and clearance .5mm I then ran auto router and this is end result?

I have that hole on bottom that is suppose to be 1/4" but it doesn't look like a 1/4" hole in the green pic. I had only shown layers, pads, holes, drills, and vias.


http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/icemanxp300/Finished%20board%20%20segments_zpsc3hbnbnn.jpg
Re: Help? [message #163650 is a reply to message #163429] Mon, 12 October 2015 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Pollum
Messages: 177
Registered: April 2005
Location: Virginia, USA
Senior Member
Quote:
M27C801-100B1

Except for the mounting hole, you need PADS not holes. A pad is a hole with copper around it. You cannot connect copper traces to holes. You can only connect traces to pads. According the the drill symbols, your mounting hole is actually the same diameter as the drill for the pads. To make it 1/4", click on "i", then click on the hole. In the dialog box you can edit the drill size of the hole. BTW, 1/4" is HUGE. You will then have to re-route your board. First, you need to rip-up the traces. Type "RIP *" (without the quotes) into the command line. Then route the board.
I see that there are several pins that aren't connected to anything. All CMOS inputs **MUST** be connected to either +V via a resistor (i.e. 10K) or directly to ground. CMOS inputs will act erratically (bounce between '0' and '1') if left floating (unconnected), and your board will act erratically, too. Floating inputs also draw more power. You may be able to get away with leaving them float, but then you will have failures in the field.
Re: Help? [message #163652 is a reply to message #163650] Mon, 12 October 2015 20:25 Go to previous message
icemanxp300
Messages: 16
Registered: September 2015
Location: NY
Junior Member
Well it has pads on both sides. I used a "header pin" layout remember. Trust me I barely understand what I did. I just dropped the library file and sent it out. I actually got some boards in today. I only ordered 10 to make sure they will work.

I need the 1/4" hole as the case it goes into has a 3/16" peg that pushes against the main pcb that this will be sitting atop of.

The only thing I did not do that I have heard mixed feelings about is ground the unused pins. I guess I could do that before I order the bulk of the load, but I made a test board and ran like 35 wires by hand and just bent up the pins to nothing and it works fine, that was months ago I did that and it still works fine?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a348/icemanxp300/100_1030_zps9sraditr.jpg
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