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6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156272] Sat, 12 July 2014 11:57 Go to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hi,

Just tested, first try, really primitive design, some 64 pun DIN
connectors, one side. And ...

Best test it itself. I stopped the job after 5 minutes. My computer
(Pi5, 4x2,4 GHz) was hot ... and - no any reasonable effect. This is one
side board.

How much resourced needs Eagle ? More than 6.6 ?

Where are the AR-settings ???

regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
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Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156282 is a reply to message #156272] Mon, 14 July 2014 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,

On 07/12/14 13:57, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just tested, first try, really primitive design, some 64 pun DIN
> connectors, one side. And ...
>
> Best test it itself. I stopped the job after 5 minutes. My computer
> (Pi5, 4x2,4 GHz) was hot ... and - no any reasonable effect. This is one
> side board.
>
> How much resourced needs Eagle ? More than 6.6 ?
>
> Where are the AR-settings ???
>
> regards
OK, I handle this over to our colleague Andrey Plekhanov,
the expert for the new Autorouter.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156290 is a reply to message #156282] Mon, 14 July 2014 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Hi Grzegorz,

Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.

BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
button (before pushing "start") to set individual
parameters for each variant.

Best Regards

Andrey Plekhanov


On 07/14/2014 11:18 AM, Walter Spermann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 07/12/14 13:57, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just tested, first try, really primitive design, some 64 pun DIN
>> connectors, one side. And ...
>>
>> Best test it itself. I stopped the job after 5 minutes. My computer
>> (Pi5, 4x2,4 GHz) was hot ... and - no any reasonable effect. This is one
>> side board.
>>
>> How much resourced needs Eagle ? More than 6.6 ?
>>
>> Where are the AR-settings ???
>>
>> regards
> OK, I handle this over to our colleague Andrey Plekhanov,
> the expert for the new Autorouter.
>
> Regards,
> Walter Spermann
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156291 is a reply to message #156290] Mon, 14 July 2014 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 14.07.2014 13:48, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
> parameters for each variant.

I just typed HELP VARIANT and cannot see a relationship. Why is the
autorouter interested in VARIANTs? Is there any documentation for the
new autorouter and its new settings and their consequences?
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156292 is a reply to message #156290] Mon, 14 July 2014 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Andrey,

> Your board needs fine grid to be routed.

I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...

> On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
> unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.

Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !

> BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"

Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!

> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
> parameters for each variant.

What do you mean exactly ?

I will test it in the night, on my home computer.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156293 is a reply to message #156292] Mon, 14 July 2014 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
You should have "Continue..." button in the first dialog.
After pushing this button you will see the second dialog.

/Andrey

On 07/14/2014 02:42 PM, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello Andrey,
>
>> Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
>
> I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...
>
>> On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
>> unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.
>
> Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !
>
>> BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
>
> Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!
>
>> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>> parameters for each variant.
>
> What do you mean exactly ?
>
> I will test it in the night, on my home computer.
>
> Best regards
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156294 is a reply to message #156291] Mon, 14 July 2014 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Autorouter generates "tasks" with
different parameters (layers direction, different grids)
to let user run them and select the best board.
These "tasks" or "autorouter variants" have nothing common
with assembly variants.
Documentation for new autorouter will be available very soon.

Regards

Andrey


On 07/14/2014 02:37 PM, René König wrote:
> Am 14.07.2014 13:48, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>> parameters for each variant.
>
> I just typed HELP VARIANT and cannot see a relationship. Why is the
> autorouter interested in VARIANTs? Is there any documentation for the
> new autorouter and its new settings and their consequences?
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156295 is a reply to message #156294] Mon, 14 July 2014 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
What task does what? When should I duplicate task? When should I delete
a task? Why do I have to take care of tasks? What happens when I uncheck
"Variant with TopRouter"? What are the actual consequences when choosing
a different "Effort" level?

Am 14.07.2014 15:00, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
> Autorouter generates "tasks" with
> different parameters (layers direction, different grids)
> to let user run them and select the best board.
> These "tasks" or "autorouter variants" have nothing common
> with assembly variants.
> Documentation for new autorouter will be available very soon.
>
> Regards
>
> Andrey
>
>
> On 07/14/2014 02:37 PM, René König wrote:
>> Am 14.07.2014 13:48, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>>> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>>> parameters for each variant.
>>
>> I just typed HELP VARIANT and cannot see a relationship. Why is the
>> autorouter interested in VARIANTs? Is there any documentation for the
>> new autorouter and its new settings and their consequences?
>>
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156296 is a reply to message #156293] Mon, 14 July 2014 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Is there a particular reason for having to click so many times before
getting to the settings we have to take care of?



Am 14.07.2014 14:49, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
> You should have "Continue..." button in the first dialog.
> After pushing this button you will see the second dialog.
>
> /Andrey
>
> On 07/14/2014 02:42 PM, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
>> Hello Andrey,
>>
>>> Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
>>
>> I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...
>>
>>> On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
>>> unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.
>>
>> Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !
>>
>>> BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
>>
>> Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!
>>
>>> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>>> parameters for each variant.
>>
>> What do you mean exactly ?
>>
>> I will test it in the night, on my home computer.
>>
>> Best regards
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156297 is a reply to message #156296] Mon, 14 July 2014 13:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
No. There are no reasons to change all these parameters if you
don't want to do something special.

In most cases you have to select layers for routing, direction (you may
set them to "auto"), push "Continue..." and then "Start".

On 07/14/2014 03:36 PM, René König wrote:
> Is there a particular reason for having to click so many times before
> getting to the settings we have to take care of?
>
>
>
> Am 14.07.2014 14:49, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>> You should have "Continue..." button in the first dialog.
>> After pushing this button you will see the second dialog.
>>
>> /Andrey
>>
>> On 07/14/2014 02:42 PM, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
>>> Hello Andrey,
>>>
>>>> Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
>>>
>>> I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...
>>>
>>>> On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
>>>> unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.
>>>
>>> Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !
>>>
>>>> BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
>>>
>>> Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!
>>>
>>>> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>>>> parameters for each variant.
>>>
>>> What do you mean exactly ?
>>>
>>> I will test it in the night, on my home computer.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156299 is a reply to message #156297] Mon, 14 July 2014 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
I shall not change something there and you even refuse to explain the
meaning of these settings. Why do you have them in the UI then?


Am 14.07.2014 15:43, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
> No. There are no reasons to change all these parameters if you
> don't want to do something special.
>
> In most cases you have to select layers for routing, direction (you may
> set them to "auto"), push "Continue..." and then "Start".
>
> On 07/14/2014 03:36 PM, René König wrote:
>> Is there a particular reason for having to click so many times before
>> getting to the settings we have to take care of?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 14.07.2014 14:49, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>>> You should have "Continue..." button in the first dialog.
>>> After pushing this button you will see the second dialog.
>>>
>>> /Andrey
>>>
>>> On 07/14/2014 02:42 PM, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
>>>> Hello Andrey,
>>>>
>>>> > Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
>>>>
>>>> I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...
>>>>
>>>> > On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
>>>> > unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !
>>>>
>>>> > BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
>>>>
>>>> Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!
>>>>
>>>> > button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>>>> > parameters for each variant.
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean exactly ?
>>>>
>>>> I will test it in the night, on my home computer.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>
>>
>
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156300 is a reply to message #156299] Mon, 14 July 2014 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Wait a minute...
I writing explanation of the philosophy of new autorouter.

On 07/14/2014 03:55 PM, René König wrote:
> I shall not change something there and you even refuse to explain the
> meaning of these settings. Why do you have them in the UI then?
>
>
> Am 14.07.2014 15:43, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>> No. There are no reasons to change all these parameters if you
>> don't want to do something special.
>>
>> In most cases you have to select layers for routing, direction (you may
>> set them to "auto"), push "Continue..." and then "Start".
>>
>> On 07/14/2014 03:36 PM, René König wrote:
>>> Is there a particular reason for having to click so many times before
>>> getting to the settings we have to take care of?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 14.07.2014 14:49, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
>>>> You should have "Continue..." button in the first dialog.
>>>> After pushing this button you will see the second dialog.
>>>>
>>>> /Andrey
>>>>
>>>> On 07/14/2014 02:42 PM, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
>>>> > Hello Andrey,
>>>> >
>>>> >> Your board needs fine grid to be routed.
>>>> >
>>>> > I set 0,254 or 0,512 mm ...
>>>> >
>>>> >> On first autorouter dialog set "16 layer direction" to "-",
>>>> >> unmark "auto grid selection" and set grid to e.g. 0.05.
>>>> >
>>>> > Hmmm, OK but I miss at least a small help !
>>>> >
>>>> >> BTW: in second dialog you can push ">>"
>>>> >
>>>> > Second dialog ? After AUTO command I had only the first dialog !!!
>>>> >
>>>> >> button (before pushing "start") to set individual
>>>> >> parameters for each variant.
>>>> >
>>>> > What do you mean exactly ?
>>>> >
>>>> > I will test it in the night, on my home computer.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
New autorouter's philosophy [message #156301 is a reply to message #156295] Mon, 14 July 2014 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrey Plekhanov
Messages: 8
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Because documentation for new autorouter delayed I have
to explain some general ideas of Eagle 7 autorouter.

It is well known that autorouter algorithms depend on
initial parameters like layers direction, grid size and some others.
Usually user should set these parameters at the beginning and
run autorouter. If resulted board is not 100% routed or has too
many vias, user should return to selecting parameters step,
change direction and/or grid and run autorouter again.
The problem is that it is not known "the best" parameters for each
particular board (they might be different for different boards).
Procedure above is quite boring and time consuming.

The new autorouter generates several "autorouter variants" with
different parameters, e.g. different combinations of layer directions
"horizontal-vertical", "vertical-horiziontal" ..., different grid size
and so on. And then run autorouter for each generated sets.
So user do not need to test different variants manually.
Of coarse it might take more time, thats why I implemented multithreaded
approach - if you have processor with several cores like i3, i5 or i7
several variants will run in parallel on different cores.

If you want to fine tune parameters, you can open "advanced" tab by
clicking ">>" button in the second dialog. In this dialog you can
add (duplicate) variant and then change paramenters e.g. weight of
via or so. You can also delete some variants.

Beside this new algorithm "TopRouter" was implemented. This approach
uses topological methods to create initial distribution of nets. This is
new approach, that's why you can switch it on/off in the first
autorouter dialogs.

The regular way how to use new autorouter is very simple:

1. Run autorouter
2. In first dialog set layers for routing with layer direction or "auto"
3. Push "Continue..."
4. In second dialog push "Start"

Hope this short description will give you an idea how to start using
new autorouter.
If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask me.

Best Regards

Andrey Plekhanov
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156302 is a reply to message #156300] Mon, 14 July 2014 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Andrey ,

> Wait a minute...
> I writing explanation of the philosophy of new autorouter.

First of all - on my laptop it seems the program is not running
properly. It stops after ca 41%. No normal termination is possible.

So, no work - no test ....

regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: 6.91.2 autorouter ... [message #156303 is a reply to message #156290] Mon, 14 July 2014 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hi Andrey ,

Something changed ...

1. Without top router it works but all elements MUST be on grid !!!
2. Toprouter. After end job - no any visible result. What I did wrong ?

When elements are out of grid the top-router blocks the program, no
normal termination possible.

best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: New autorouter's philosophy [message #156308 is a reply to message #156301] Mon, 14 July 2014 18:39 Go to previous message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
OK, so the autorouter is still the same as it ever was and still single
threaded. I just can run multiple autorouter jobs simultaneous.
Additionally, you built the 'TopRouter' into the software. This router,
however, does not get the simplest boards done (unlike the traditional
router). So this one renders useless.

Then, when choosing a Routing Grid on my own, it doesn't get applied to
the 'TopRouter' variant. Why? In order to see that, I always have to
click on ">>". Why, why, why do you hide these settings by default???

When unchecking "Variant with TopRouter" and clicking "continue", I
cannot create such a variant afterwards. I have to close the AUTO dialog
and open it again. Why isn't there a CheckBox on the "General" tab?

As far as I can see, setting "Effort" to "High" is nothing more than
having more optimizer runs. This seems, however, only being the case for
the TopRouter. What is the effect when "Variant with TopRouter" is
unchecked?



Am 14.07.2014 16:39, schrieb Andrey Plekhanov:
> Because documentation for new autorouter delayed I have
> to explain some general ideas of Eagle 7 autorouter.
>
> It is well known that autorouter algorithms depend on
> initial parameters like layers direction, grid size and some others.
> Usually user should set these parameters at the beginning and
> run autorouter. If resulted board is not 100% routed or has too
> many vias, user should return to selecting parameters step,
> change direction and/or grid and run autorouter again.
> The problem is that it is not known "the best" parameters for each
> particular board (they might be different for different boards).
> Procedure above is quite boring and time consuming.
>
> The new autorouter generates several "autorouter variants" with
> different parameters, e.g. different combinations of layer directions
> "horizontal-vertical", "vertical-horiziontal" ..., different grid size
> and so on. And then run autorouter for each generated sets.
> So user do not need to test different variants manually.
> Of coarse it might take more time, thats why I implemented multithreaded
> approach - if you have processor with several cores like i3, i5 or i7
> several variants will run in parallel on different cores.
>
> If you want to fine tune parameters, you can open "advanced" tab by
> clicking ">>" button in the second dialog. In this dialog you can
> add (duplicate) variant and then change paramenters e.g. weight of
> via or so. You can also delete some variants.
>
> Beside this new algorithm "TopRouter" was implemented. This approach
> uses topological methods to create initial distribution of nets. This is
> new approach, that's why you can switch it on/off in the first
> autorouter dialogs.
>
> The regular way how to use new autorouter is very simple:
>
> 1. Run autorouter
> 2. In first dialog set layers for routing with layer direction or "auto"
> 3. Push "Continue..."
> 4. In second dialog push "Start"
>
> Hope this short description will give you an idea how to start using
> new autorouter.
> If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask me.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Andrey Plekhanov
>
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