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Version 7.0 licensing [message #156064] Mon, 30 June 2014 15:27 Go to next message
Jussi Ilvonen
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2014
Junior Member
Hi

I got some guestions regarding the new licensing system in the
upcoming version 7:

Node locked licenses: Does Cadsoft plan to allow users to transfer
node locked license to a new computer if the original computer breaks
or is upgraded?

Does the same license still allow the software to be used on any of
the three supported computer architectures?


BR
Jussi
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156065 is a reply to message #156064] Mon, 30 June 2014 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 6/30/2014 11:27 AM, Jussi Ilvonen wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I got some guestions regarding the new licensing system in the
> upcoming version 7:
>
> Node locked licenses: Does Cadsoft plan to allow users to transfer
> node locked license to a new computer if the original computer breaks
> or is upgraded?
Hi Jussi,

I hope you're doing well. Of course we'll allow you to re-license to a
new machine, it would be insane not to allow it.
>
> Does the same license still allow the software to be used on any of
> the three supported computer architectures?

Yes, the same license will work across all three major operating systems
that we have always supported.

hth,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156097 is a reply to message #156065] Wed, 02 July 2014 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans-Peter
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
Am 30.06.2014 17:30, schrieb Jorge Garcia:

> On 6/30/2014 11:27 AM, Jussi Ilvonen wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I got some guestions regarding the new licensing system in the
>> upcoming version 7:
>>
>> Node locked licenses: Does Cadsoft plan to allow users to transfer
>> node locked license to a new computer if the original computer breaks
>> or is upgraded?
> Hi Jussi,
>
> I hope you're doing well. Of course we'll allow you to re-license to a
> new machine, it would be insane not to allow it.
>>
>> Does the same license still allow the software to be used on any of
>> the three supported computer architectures?
>
> Yes, the same license will work across all three major operating systems
> that we have always supported.
>
> hth,
> Jorge Garcia
>
Is there a plan to make a dongle available, instead of the node locked
license? I use to work at my office and at home, so I would be forced to
buy another license. No one is using my PCs besides myself.

BR
Hans-Peter
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156098 is a reply to message #156097] Wed, 02 July 2014 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1351
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
"Hans-Peter" skrev i nyhetsmeldingen: lp0s0b$ql7$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de ...

> Is there a plan to make a dongle available, instead of the node locked
> license? I use to work at my office and at home, so I would be forced to
> buy another license. No one is using my PCs besides myself.

Im not very fond of those node locked licenses of any kind, but I have a
wireless usb dongle that I use when I have to. If you lock the license to
the MAC adress of the wireless dongle, you can carry it around, at least for
the FLEX licenses I've tried.

An alternative, if you work on separate networks, many network drivers let
you alter the MAC adress, so you can clone the one you locked it to. If you
dont know how to, you know where to google..

I assume Cadsoft is aware of this.
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156099 is a reply to message #156065] Wed, 02 July 2014 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans-Peter
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
Hi,
I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
included license files are both reported as invalid.
BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
had to restore them manually :-(

BR
Hans-Peter
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156100 is a reply to message #156099] Wed, 02 July 2014 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,
On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
> Hi,
> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
> included license files are both reported as invalid.
> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
> had to restore them manually :-(
>
> BR
> Hans-Peter
>
We know of one problem where we currently work on a fix:
Can it be that the environment variable
LM_LICENCE_FILE
is set ?
If yes, could you try unsetting that variable and try again ?

Regards,
Walter Spermann
>
>
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156101 is a reply to message #156100] Wed, 02 July 2014 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans-Peter
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
Am 02.07.2014 16:06, schrieb Walter Spermann:
> Hi,
> On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
>> included license files are both reported as invalid.
>> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
>> had to restore them manually :-(
>>
>> BR
>> Hans-Peter
>>
> We know of one problem where we currently work on a fix:
> Can it be that the environment variable
> LM_LICENCE_FILE
> is set ?
> If yes, could you try unsetting that variable and try again ?
>
> Regards,
> Walter Spermann

Yes, this var is set. It is used by the LATTICE FPGA tools, so I can't
clear it.
BR
Hans-Peter
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156102 is a reply to message #156101] Wed, 02 July 2014 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans-Peter
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
Am 02.07.2014 17:04, schrieb Hans-Peter:
> Am 02.07.2014 16:06, schrieb Walter Spermann:
>> Hi,
>> On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
>>> included license files are both reported as invalid.
>>> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
>>> had to restore them manually :-(
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Hans-Peter
>>>
>> We know of one problem where we currently work on a fix:
>> Can it be that the environment variable
>> LM_LICENCE_FILE
>> is set ?
>> If yes, could you try unsetting that variable and try again ?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Walter Spermann
>
> Yes, this var is set. It is used by the LATTICE FPGA tools, so I can't
> clear it.
> BR
> Hans-Peter
>
I have disabled it temporarily, now it works. This variable contains
paths to different license files. Is it possible to simply add the path
to the EAGLE lic file?

The new icons are indeed hard to read on a high resolution screen. Maybe
a nice design, but an ergonomic disaster. What's next, ribbons?? ;-)

BR
Hans-Peter
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156103 is a reply to message #156102] Wed, 02 July 2014 15:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/02/14 17:13, Hans-Peter wrote:
> Am 02.07.2014 17:04, schrieb Hans-Peter:
>> Am 02.07.2014 16:06, schrieb Walter Spermann:
>>> Hi,
>>> On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
>>>> included license files are both reported as invalid.
>>>> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
>>>> had to restore them manually :-(
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>> Hans-Peter
>>>>
>>> We know of one problem where we currently work on a fix:
>>> Can it be that the environment variable
>>> LM_LICENCE_FILE
>>> is set ?
>>> If yes, could you try unsetting that variable and try again ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Walter Spermann
>>
>> Yes, this var is set. It is used by the LATTICE FPGA tools, so I can't
>> clear it.
>> BR
>> Hans-Peter
I see, good to know.
>>
> I have disabled it temporarily, now it works. This variable contains
> paths to different license files. Is it possible to simply add the path
> to the EAGLE lic file?
It's not the way we recommend. There are complex environments, where this variable
might contain many paths from different software packages which makes it difficult
to get the right license file.
We have fixed that in a way the EAGLE works independently from that setting.
You may try is out in next beta. :-)

>
> The new icons are indeed hard to read on a high resolution screen. Maybe
> a nice design, but an ergonomic disaster. What's next, ribbons?? ;-)
We decided to make the icons switchable between old and new
(via Options/User interface).

Regards,
Walter Spermann
>
> BR
> Hans-Peter
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156104 is a reply to message #156099] Wed, 02 July 2014 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
> Hi,
> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
> included license files are both reported as invalid.
> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
> had to restore them manually :-(
It grabs file associations ?
EAGLE does not associate any file endings to EAGLE types automatically.
Not sure how you mean that.

Regards,
Walter Spermann
>
> BR
> Hans-Peter
>
>
>
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156105 is a reply to message #156104] Wed, 02 July 2014 15:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hans-Peter
Messages: 78
Registered: September 2008
Member
Am 02.07.2014 17:28, schrieb Walter Spermann:
> On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
>> included license files are both reported as invalid.
>> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
>> had to restore them manually :-(
> It grabs file associations ?
> EAGLE does not associate any file endings to EAGLE types automatically.
> Not sure how you mean that.
>
> Regards,
> Walter Spermann

Doubleclicking on any .BRD, .SCH etc. after installing the beta version
opened the beta version, not the 6.6.0 I am currently working with. Of
course, there is a workaround: Unpacking the install file manually with
7zip and so skipping the installer.
Maybe this is a Win$ quirk.
Regards,
Hans-Peter
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156106 is a reply to message #156105] Wed, 02 July 2014 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/02/14 17:46, Hans-Peter wrote:
> Am 02.07.2014 17:28, schrieb Walter Spermann:
>> On 07/02/14 15:09, Hans-Peter wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I've just downloaded and installed the Beta version (Win XP). The
>>> included license files are both reported as invalid.
>>> BTW the beta version grabs all the file associations without asking. I
>>> had to restore them manually :-(
>> It grabs file associations ?
>> EAGLE does not associate any file endings to EAGLE types automatically.
>> Not sure how you mean that.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Walter Spermann
>
> Doubleclicking on any .BRD, .SCH etc. after installing the beta version
> opened the beta version, not the 6.6.0 I am currently working with.
I see. Actually that's no new behaviour.
6.91.1 is registered as the latest EAGLE version and now sits where 6.6.0
used to sit.

Of
> course, there is a workaround: Unpacking the install file manually with
> 7zip and so skipping the installer.
> Maybe this is a Win$ quirk.
We take a look if this can be improved easily. Probably a registry entry
that should not get overwritten in case of a beta version.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

> Regards,
> Hans-Peter
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156108 is a reply to message #156097] Wed, 02 July 2014 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
> Is there a plan to make a dongle available, instead of the node locked
> license? I use to work at my office and at home, so I would be forced to
> buy another license. No one is using my PCs besides myself.
>
> BR
> Hans-Peter

There are currently no plans for a dongle, however if there's enough
demand for it we'll adjust. In your particular case there's no problem
since single user licenses are allowed to be tied to two computers at a
time. No need to buy another license.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156109 is a reply to message #156108] Wed, 02 July 2014 22:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Jorge Garcia wrote on Wed, 02 July 2014 13:24
There are currently no plans for a dongle, however if there's enough demand for it we'll adjust. In your particular case there's no problem since single user licenses are allowed to be tied to two computers at a time. No need to buy another license.

I actually use three computers consistently, my home workstation, my work workstation, and my laptop when I'm on travel. How should I deal with that?
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156117 is a reply to message #156109] Thu, 03 July 2014 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 7/2/2014 6:01 PM, Doug Wellington wrote:
> I actually use three computers consistently, my home workstation, my work
> workstation, and my laptop when I'm on travel. How should I deal with
> that?
>

Hi Doug,

The way the licensing scheme is currently planned my suggestion would be
pick two of the three computers to have EAGLE installed on. It wouldn't
make sense to buy another license just to use EAGLE on a third computer.

This is the type of scenario where a dongle would be practical,
especially a nice small USB one. If this is something you think we
should do, let us know. If we get a lot of requests for this we'll have
to implement it in some way.

This is what betas are for to get as much feedback as possible to have
things as ready as we can for the official release.

hth,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156119 is a reply to message #156117] Thu, 03 July 2014 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
On Thu, 03 July 2014 09:40, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> The way the licensing scheme is currently planned my suggestion would be
> pick two of the three computers to have EAGLE installed on. It wouldn't
> make sense to buy another license just to use EAGLE on a third computer.

Ugh. TBH, that sucks. I agree that it doesn't make sense to buy another license. If I have to spend that kind of money, I might as well fully commit to Altium...

> This is the type of scenario where a dongle would be practical,
> especially a nice small USB one.

I've had a love-hate relationship with dongles for a long time. I have a half dozen of the dern thAngs for various apps that I use. I'm usually quite the law-abiding guy, but dongles have definitely made me consider using cracked software.

> If this is something you think we should do, let us know.

So, what exactly is it that is making you guys move to this new scheme? I'm guessing fear of piracy, but do you really think that this will solve the problem for you?

FWIW, we used to use Portland Group (FORTRAN!) compilers, and one of the reasons for us switching to Intel was to get away from this exact license management system. A couple years back, we had a rash of server failures that were fixed by swapping out motherboards. The MAC address changed because of the onboard NIC, making the license server fail. Of course, we wouldn't find out right away, only later when someone tried to use one of the compilers. The Portland Group did make it easy to deallocate and reallocate licenses on their web site, but that opened up the possibility of allocating a license, installing it, deallocating that, reallocating it on a different computer, etc...

Regards,
Doug
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156127 is a reply to message #156119] Fri, 04 July 2014 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Fecht
Messages: 118
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Doug Wellington schrieb:

> So, what exactly is it that is making you guys move to this new scheme?
> I'm guessing fear of piracy, but do you really think that this will solve
> the problem for you?
>

After the Eagle-dongel-phase Cadsoft change to a model with a big
confidence with their customers. This was producing a relationship
between customer and Cadsoft. At this point this was my impulse to
bought my Eagle-license.

I think this new licensing step will push some Eagle-Customers to go to
other competitors. For me, I' waiting for Eagle 8.0 until they give up
this nonsens.

If here is a native-english-speaker please translate this to correct
(poetic) english language so that all here can understand this phrase:

Je enger man die Zügel anzieht, desto langsamer läuft das Pferd.


Andreas
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156132 is a reply to message #156127] Fri, 04 July 2014 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 04.07.2014 09:55, schrieb Andreas Fecht:
> I think this new licensing step will push some Eagle-Customers to go to
> other competitors. For me, I' waiting for Eagle 8.0 until they give up
> this nonsens.

Don't forget that all users are criminals. This is why we, the
customers, were begging for a new licensing scheme (and new icons, of
course). And this is was V7 is all about.

I'm quite sure that I'll skip V7 as well. Time has come to look what the
competitors are doing.

Rene
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156133 is a reply to message #156127] Fri, 04 July 2014 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
On Fri, 04 July 2014 00:55, Andreas Fecht wrote:
> I think this new licensing step will push some Eagle-Customers to go to
> other competitors. For me, I' waiting for Eagle 8.0 until they give up
> this nonsens.

I agree. When you hear some computer industry pundits talk, it would seem that all commercial software will go out of business because of piracy. (I wonder sometimes if it isn't just the people who are selling the licensing software!) I have always been very impressed that Cakewalk Sonar has *no* copy protection and they are not only still in business, they are probably the major audio program running on Windows. Reaper is another great program with no copy protection. It would be very interesting to have a conversation with those developers...

I have seen a problem here in the US in recent years. The economy has slowed down and many restaurants have lost business. In an attempt to cut costs, some restaurants have limited the items on their menus and have started charging for small extras (chips and salsa for example) and then they wonder why customers stop coming back...

> If here is a native-english-speaker please translate this to correct
> (poetic) english language so that all here can understand this phrase:

> Je enger man die Zügel anzieht, desto langsamer läuft das Pferd.

Ah, there are similar phrases in English. "The tighter you pull the reins, the slower the horse goes." A variation is, "the tighter you hold on, the more slips through your fingers."

Regards,
Doug
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156139 is a reply to message #156127] Sat, 05 July 2014 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 04.07.2014 09:55, Andreas Fecht wrote:

> After the Eagle-dongel-phase Cadsoft change to a model with a big
> confidence with their customers. This was producing a relationship
> between customer and Cadsoft. At this point this was my impulse to
> bought my Eagle-license.
>

I also hate this license manager crap. We use several programs that use
this FlexLM crap. It constantly gives trouble.

I also consider skipping V7.

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156140 is a reply to message #156139] Sat, 05 July 2014 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carsten Wille
Messages: 137
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
On 2014-07-05 10:06, Markus Rudolf wrote:
> On 04.07.2014 09:55, Andreas Fecht wrote:
>
>> After the Eagle-dongel-phase Cadsoft change to a model with a big
>> confidence with their customers. This was producing a relationship
>> between customer and Cadsoft. At this point this was my impulse to
>> bought my Eagle-license.
>>
>
> I also hate this license manager crap. We use several programs that use
> this FlexLM crap. It constantly gives trouble.
>
> I also consider skipping V7.
>
> Markus

I'll intend to skip V7, too. No FlexLM please.
Carsten
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156141 is a reply to message #156119] Sat, 05 July 2014 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,

On 07/03/14 21:58, Doug Wellington wrote:
> On Thu, 03 July 2014 09:40, Jorge Garcia wrote:
>> The way the licensing scheme is currently planned my suggestion would
>> be
>> pick two of the three computers to have EAGLE installed on. It
>> wouldn't
>> make sense to buy another license just to use EAGLE on a third
>> computer.
>
> Ugh. TBH, that sucks. I agree that it doesn't make sense to buy another
> license. If I have to spend that kind of money, I might as well fully
> commit to Altium...
>
>> This is the type of scenario where a dongle would be practical,
>> especially a nice small USB one.
>
> I've had a love-hate relationship with dongles for a long time. I have a
> half dozen of the dern thAngs for various apps that I use. I'm usually
> quite the law-abiding guy, but dongles have definitely made me consider
> using cracked software.
>
>> If this is something you think we should do, let us know.
>
> So, what exactly is it that is making you guys move to this new scheme?

We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
where abuse of licenses is a problem.

Concerning multi user licenses, we are repeatedly asked by customers
why we don't have something like a license server controlling the number
of simultaneously used licenses. For some customers (bigger companies)
this is a precondition to buy EAGLE.

> I'm guessing fear of piracy, but do you really think that this will solve
> the problem for you?
Surely it won't solve all problems, it might even create new ones
as you mentioned it below.
However, the licensing scheme from Flexera is quite common in the CAD world
and works well for the majority of the cases.
We are using it in a pretty simple file based way to keep it similar to the
old licensing and to minimize problems.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> FWIW, we used to use Portland Group (FORTRAN!) compilers, and one of the
> reasons for us switching to Intel was to get away from this exact license
> management system. A couple years back, we had a rash of server failures
> that were fixed by swapping out motherboards. The MAC address changed
> because of the onboard NIC, making the license server fail. Of course, we
> wouldn't find out right away, only later when someone tried to use one of
> the compilers. The Portland Group did make it easy to deallocate and
> reallocate licenses on their web site, but that opened up the possibility
> of allocating a license, installing it, deallocating that, reallocating it
> on a different computer, etc...
>
> Regards,
> Doug


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156142 is a reply to message #156141] Sat, 05 July 2014 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
On Sat, 05 July 2014 12:57, Walter Spermann wrote:
> Concerning multi user licenses, we are repeatedly asked by customers
> why we don't have something like a license server controlling the number
> of simultaneously used licenses.

Thanks for the reply, Walter. This is the way Altium is set up where I work. It would be a very nice answer for me if CadSoft did something similar, as I would only need to check out one license at a time, whether it's from my home computer, my work computer, or my laptop. The only trouble would be that I like to work when I fly (I have seven hours of flight time this Tuesday!) and I would need to be able to get a license when I am not attached to the Internet...

Can you at least just change the maximum installation count from two to three for people like me?

Regards,
Doug
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156143 is a reply to message #156119] Sat, 05 July 2014 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1767
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
I have recently had an assignment which involved the licensing for many
different software applications. There were many methodologies but one
thing was clear, the vendors have seen the need and put in place
automated mechanisms to manage users licensing, reducing the cost to
themselves of managing the license into the users world.

I experienced very impressive, prompt assistance when those mechanisms
don't work or cannot work. By 'cannot work' I mean, for example,
firewalls that block automated licensing transactions or licensing onto
a new OS's like Windows 8.1 when there have been subtle changing since
the mechanisms were put in place.

For many years the vendors have seen the need to permit certain software
to be installed on two PCs as many of their customers work from two PCs
e.g Desktop/Laptop or Work/Home.

Nowadays we have a plethora of computing devices around us and a very
mobile work pattern so two has become three. Hot-desking introduces
another aspect.

More PCs become a risk for the vendor, a potential loss of sales. Some
would give one installation away to a friend so that is the instance
than needs managing.


I feel a solution is a variation on the transferable license.

1. The user gets two concurrent installs. Which caters for the most
common use scenarios (Desktop/Laptop or Work/Home).

2. A license can be 'borrowed' from one of these two PCs for 24/48
hours. The mechanism to do this may require being on-line to Cadsoft but
ideally should be initiated natively from a licensed instance of Eagle.

The above caters for overnight client/business trips or weekends away
from work/home.

3. The borrowed license is simply a time limited license similar to what
is in used, on occasion, currently.

4. Cadsoft would need to choose whether the initiating PC retains it's
current level of licencing or drops to the 'Lite' edition. If the
initiating PC does drop to the Lite version then there needs to be a
mechanism to automatically return to the full version after the 'borrow
time period has elapsed or earlier once the traveler has returned.

5. For longer periods away then a full transfer of one of the licenced
installations needs to be performed via Cadsoft.


I see the above as workable but wish to say that a dependence on an
Internet connection/ Email for the temporary 'borrow', once the initial
two installations have been registered, should be avoided.


HTH
Warren
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156144 is a reply to message #156143] Sun, 06 July 2014 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
> 2. A license can be 'borrowed' from one of these two PCs for 24/48
> hours. The mechanism to do this may require being on-line to Cadsoft but
> ideally should be initiated natively from a licensed instance of Eagle.

I would definitly need a solution where I can choose for which time
period I borrow one license from the server. We do field campaigns on
remote areas of the planet where there is no Internet and these trips
can last several weeks.

Our CAD Software from Autodesk lets you pick the date where the license
expires just with a calendar picker control.

That would be the minimum requirement for me.

If you forget to checkout a license you are screwed anyways.

Thats why I still would highly prefer to keep the old licensing scheme.

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156161 is a reply to message #156141] Mon, 07 July 2014 07:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sebastian Brueckner
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2008
Junior Member
Am 05.07.2014 21:57, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:
> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
> where abuse of licenses is a problem.

All the FlexLM-based software that I have used in the past allowed
binding a node-locked license to nothing but a MAC address. MAC
addresses can be arbitrarily changed in most NIC drivers, so I don't see
what keeps users from abusing node-locked licenses. Is your licensing
going to fix this problem?

I do like the idea of floating licenses since we (University) have a
large number of PCs were Eagle is used, but only a few workstation use
it regularly. A license server would make it much easier to track the
number of licenses we actually need. Also we already have a license
server set up for other software, so setting up an additional license
daemon should not be a lot of work.

Best regards
Sebastian
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156168 is a reply to message #156141] Mon, 07 July 2014 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jussi Ilvonen
Messages: 10
Registered: June 2014
Junior Member
On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 21:57:34 +0200, Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de wrote:


> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
> where abuse of licenses is a problem.
>
> Concerning multi user licenses, we are repeatedly asked by customers
> why we don't have something like a license server controlling the number
> of simultaneously used licenses. For some customers (bigger companies)
> this is a precondition to buy EAGLE.

One of the reasons I chose Eagle was its sane licensing system. News
of this move to Flexera has made me to seriously consider about moving
to some other CAD system.

Would you consider a licensing scheme where the single user licenses
use the same system as in version 6 and multi-user licenses use
Flexera licensing server?

This could offer an acceptable compromise: bigger companies could have
their centralized license management and the users of the single user
licenses could continue without worrying about the licensing changes.

If someone wishes to pirate Eagle then they will just download a
cracked version from Piratebay anyway. Copy restriction systems can
only hurt legitimate customers.

> However, the licensing scheme from Flexera is quite common in the CAD world
> and works well for the majority of the cases.

Common, certainly. Works well? If only...

Best Regards
Jussi
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156169 is a reply to message #156143] Mon, 07 July 2014 11:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1456
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 05.07.2014 23:27, schrieb warrenbrayshaw:


snip
>
>
> I see the above as workable but wish to say that a dependence on an
> Internet connection/ Email for the temporary 'borrow', once the initial
> two installations have been registered, should be avoided.
>
>
> HTH
> Warren
>
>

I sometimes have to work in places where a connection to the internet is
just not allowed.
So a license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable for me.


--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156178 is a reply to message #156142] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/05/14 22:58, Doug Wellington wrote:
> On Sat, 05 July 2014 12:57, Walter Spermann wrote:
>> Concerning multi user licenses, we are repeatedly asked by customers
>> why we don't have something like a license server controlling the
>> number
>> of simultaneously used licenses.
>
> Thanks for the reply, Walter. This is the way Altium is set up where I
> work. It would be a very nice answer for me if CadSoft did something
> similar, as I would only need to check out one license at a time, whether
> it's from my home computer, my work computer, or my laptop. The only
> trouble would be that I like to work when I fly (I have seven hours of
> flight time this Tuesday!) and I would need to be able to get a license
> when I am not attached to the Internet...
>
> Can you at least just change the maximum installation count from two to
> three for people like me?
We consider 2 hosts a fair compromise.
If we allow 3 I'm sure another customer
will askus to allow at least 4 hosts and so on.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> Regards,
> Doug


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156179 is a reply to message #156161] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/07/14 09:15, Sebastian Brueckner wrote:
> Am 05.07.2014 21:57, schrieb Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de:
>> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
>> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
>> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
>> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
>> where abuse of licenses is a problem.
>
> All the FlexLM-based software that I have used in the past allowed
> binding a node-locked license to nothing but a MAC address. MAC
> addresses can be arbitrarily changed in most NIC drivers, so I don't see
> what keeps users from abusing node-locked licenses. Is your licensing
> going to fix this problem?
We are not binding it directly to a MAC adress, so this won't work.

>
> I do like the idea of floating licenses since we (University) have a
> large number of PCs were Eagle is used, but only a few workstation use
> it regularly. A license server would make it much easier to track the
> number of licenses we actually need. Also we already have a license
> server set up for other software, so setting up an additional license
> daemon should not be a lot of work.
We think so, too. We included the cadsoft vendor daemon in directory bin/lic
of our distribution for those people who already have FlexLM.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> Best regards
> Sebastian
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156180 is a reply to message #156168] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,
On 07/07/14 13:21, Jussi Ilvonen wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 21:57:34 +0200, Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de wrote:
>
>
>> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
>> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
>> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
>> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
>> where abuse of licenses is a problem.
>>
>> Concerning multi user licenses, we are repeatedly asked by customers
>> why we don't have something like a license server controlling the number
>> of simultaneously used licenses. For some customers (bigger companies)
>> this is a precondition to buy EAGLE.
>
> One of the reasons I chose Eagle was its sane licensing system. News
> of this move to Flexera has made me to seriously consider about moving
> to some other CAD system.
>
> Would you consider a licensing scheme where the single user licenses
> use the same system as in version 6 and multi-user licenses use
> Flexera licensing server?
it's been a management decision to use node-locked licenses for single user.
So far we have no plans to change it.

Regards,
Walter Spermann
>
> This could offer an acceptable compromise: bigger companies could have
> their centralized license management and the users of the single user
> licenses could continue without worrying about the licensing changes.
>
> If someone wishes to pirate Eagle then they will just download a
> cracked version from Piratebay anyway. Copy restriction systems can
> only hurt legitimate customers.
>
>> However, the licensing scheme from Flexera is quite common in the CAD world
>> and works well for the majority of the cases.
>
> Common, certainly. Works well? If only...
>
> Best Regards
> Jussi
>
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156181 is a reply to message #156143] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,
On 07/05/14 23:27, warrenbrayshaw wrote:
> I have recently had an assignment which involved the licensing for many
> different software applications. There were many methodologies but one
> thing was clear, the vendors have seen the need and put in place
> automated mechanisms to manage users licensing, reducing the cost to
> themselves of managing the license into the users world.
>
> I experienced very impressive, prompt assistance when those mechanisms
> don't work or cannot work. By 'cannot work' I mean, for example,
> firewalls that block automated licensing transactions or licensing onto
> a new OS's like Windows 8.1 when there have been subtle changing since
> the mechanisms were put in place.
>
> For many years the vendors have seen the need to permit certain software
> to be installed on two PCs as many of their customers work from two PCs
> e.g Desktop/Laptop or Work/Home.
>
> Nowadays we have a plethora of computing devices around us and a very
> mobile work pattern so two has become three. Hot-desking introduces
> another aspect.
>
> More PCs become a risk for the vendor, a potential loss of sales. Some
> would give one installation away to a friend so that is the instance
> than needs managing.
>
>
> I feel a solution is a variation on the transferable license.
>
> 1. The user gets two concurrent installs. Which caters for the most
> common use scenarios (Desktop/Laptop or Work/Home).
>
> 2. A license can be 'borrowed' from one of these two PCs for 24/48
> hours. The mechanism to do this may require being on-line to Cadsoft but
> ideally should be initiated natively from a licensed instance of Eagle.
>
> The above caters for overnight client/business trips or weekends away
> from work/home.
>
> 3. The borrowed license is simply a time limited license similar to what
> is in used, on occasion, currently.
>
> 4. Cadsoft would need to choose whether the initiating PC retains it's
> current level of licencing or drops to the 'Lite' edition. If the
> initiating PC does drop to the Lite version then there needs to be a
> mechanism to automatically return to the full version after the 'borrow
> time period has elapsed or earlier once the traveler has returned.
>
> 5. For longer periods away then a full transfer of one of the licenced
> installations needs to be performed via Cadsoft.
>
>
> I see the above as workable but wish to say that a dependence on an
> Internet connection/ Email for the temporary 'borrow', once the initial
> two installations have been registered, should be avoided.
The mechanism of borrowing and returning is something we considered.
We didn't do it so far because it's significantly more effort to implement.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
>
> HTH
> Warren
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156182 is a reply to message #156169] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/07/14 13:45, Joern Paschedag wrote:
> Am 05.07.2014 23:27, schrieb warrenbrayshaw:
>
>
> snip
>>
>>
>> I see the above as workable but wish to say that a dependence on an
>> Internet connection/ Email for the temporary 'borrow', once the initial
>> two installations have been registered, should be avoided.
>>
>>
>> HTH
>> Warren
>>
>>
>
> I sometimes have to work in places where a connection to the internet is
> just not allowed.
> So a license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable for me.
>
>
This hasn't changed to version 6. No internet connection except the Freemium (FreeTrial) version.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156183 is a reply to message #156180] Mon, 07 July 2014 16:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 07.07.2014 18:34, Walter Spermann wrote:

> it's been a management decision to use node-locked licenses for single user.
> So far we have no plans to change it.
>
> Regards,
> Walter Spermann

I expected no positive outcome of the takeover from Farnell/Element 14.
Just squeeze as much money out of the customers and piss off the long
term users.

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156193 is a reply to message #156182] Tue, 08 July 2014 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1456
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 07.07.2014 18:47, schrieb Walter Spermann:
> On 07/07/14 13:45, Joern Paschedag wrote:
>> Am 05.07.2014 23:27, schrieb warrenbrayshaw:
>>
>>
>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>> I see the above as workable but wish to say that a dependence on an
>>> Internet connection/ Email for the temporary 'borrow', once the initial
>>> two installations have been registered, should be avoided.
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> Warren
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I sometimes have to work in places where a connection to the internet is
>> just not allowed.
>> So a license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable for me.
>>
>>
> This hasn't changed to version 6. No internet connection except the Freemium (FreeTrial) version.
>
> Regards,
> Walter Spermann
>

I know, but I thought we were talking about future version 7 ;-)

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156200 is a reply to message #156064] Tue, 08 July 2014 10:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1351
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
I sincerely hope this new Flexera licensing will give some advantages to
paying customers too, not just the hazzle.
Some questions pop up:

-Will Eagle become a commercial failure without this license change, or are
you trying to squeeze more juice out of the marked?
-Will we get accelerated development (more [wo]men on the development team)?
There are a lot of outstanding features that could improve Eagle.
-Does Eagle still aim at a low cost entry and low cost maintainance
solution, or did the marked target change or widen up?
-Does Eagle want to become a product more ruled by marked forces?
-What is going to make Eagle different from the others in the future?

-Could anyone at Farnell/Cadsoft (eagle management) share some strategic
goals/thoughts?
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156214 is a reply to message #156141] Wed, 09 July 2014 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Walter,

> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
> where abuse of licenses is a problem.

Do you really think the new license method will limit the cracking of
Eagle program ? I am a bit closer to "Russia and Asia" and the reality
is a bit different ...

IMHO the first step to easy use of cracked versions was XML data format,
without this famous "Kennung" storage in the binary file.

I am one more which will wait for some time and check the + and - one
the new version.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156215 is a reply to message #156200] Wed, 09 July 2014 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Liratsch
Messages: 1
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Hi Morten,

Thanks for your feedback; a lot of good questions which I will try to
answer as best as I can.

First of all I must say there are two reasons why we are implementing
the license management tool:

1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.
Unfortunately we have seen an increase of cracked EAGLE versions in the
past two years and we need to act and protect EAGLE in a much better
way. Of course there will never be 100% software protection. We will see
cracked EAGLE versions in the future and we are all aware of this. But
we hope with this new license management technology, we can control the
use of EAGLE in a much better way.

2) Many customers actually asked for such a licenses management system
that enables them to control multiple licenses on a
server. In most companies where you have multiple licenses on a server,
you need a license management system to control the use of the purchased
licenses, especially where they are required to fulfil compliance rules.

You have a point when you say some additional effort is necessary now,
but this also applies for CadSoft as well.  Implementing 3rd party
licensing technology was a significant  investment for us, both in terms
of money and additional effort, but there was no way around it.

Regarding your question on development resources, the answer is a clear
yes. We will continue to invest in development
resources, and I agree, there are many features we can improve. But
please keep in mind that we are a small company and have a small team
focusing on developing EAGLE.

Not sure I understand your question regarding EAGLE becoming "a product
more ruled by marked forces?” I hope that is where we are today. We have
always been a company driven by our customers, and without commercial
success we would simply not exist. We will continue to offer a
“freeware” version of EAGLE, as well as commercial licenses starting as
low as € 62. CadSoft wants
to continue to offer a product that is influenced by market trends and
features that best accommodate the PCB designer.

The development of EAGLE is clearly focused on the needs of our
customers and their requirements. We collect this feedback
and then make decisions on what we can realistically deliver with our
small team. It’s as simple as this. And, yes, we plan to stay in the
market where we are successful. We will continue aim HIGH and push the
market with the most cost effective and stable program available. This
is a business model that has successfully worked for us for the past 26
years.  In the past 10 years we
have had been able to notice a vast increase in fortune 500 companies
and government institutions that have adopted EAGLE as a program of
choice for their Research & Development teams.  There is no change in
our strategy just because we try to protect EAGLE.

I think the main difference to other tools in the market is and always
will be that EAGLE is a very easy to use and powerful tool
at a reasonable price with world-class support. That is also why many
companies are buying EAGLE on top of their current Design Environment.
It also depends on what market you are comparing with EAGLE. We strongly
feel that EAGLE is already different from others.  With the
implementation of ULP's, XML data Structure, improved Autorouter,
support for multiple OS's and many more that make EAGLE a great choice
for any PCB application. We continue to notice more tools being able to
import and export in EAGLE format.  Some manufactures are now
implementing tools and libraries that are fully compatible with EAGLE.
This must mean that EAGLE has a strong influence in this industry. We
will continue to work tirelessly to make EAGLE the program of choice as
we have done so far.

I hope this will answer some of your question. Please keep on sharing
your thoughts with us.

Best regards,

Thomas Liratsch
Managing Director
CadSoft Computer
thomas.liratsch@cadsoft.de (mailto:thomas.liratsch@cadsoft.de)

--
To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
http://www.element14.com/community/message/119815
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156217 is a reply to message #156215] Wed, 09 July 2014 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Thomas,

> 1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.
> Unfortunately we have seen an increase of cracked EAGLE versions in the
> past two years and we need to act and protect EAGLE in a much better
> way.

No wonder, the XML doesnt store the Eagle license number ... Past 2
years - you have the reason !

I am really wondering why you switched to this open text storage system
.... Because "open" is for unauthorised users more "safe" ...

> I think the main difference to other tools in the market is and always
> will be that EAGLE is a very easy to use and powerful tool
> at a reasonable price with world-class support. That is also why many
> companies are buying EAGLE on top of their current Design Environment.
> It also depends on what market you are comparing with EAGLE. We strongly
> feel that EAGLE is already different from others. With the
> implementation of ULP's, XML data Structure, improved Autorouter,
> support for multiple OS's and many more that make EAGLE a great choice
> for any PCB application.

ULP - yes. This is Eagle's interface to the world !!!

XML ... imho no any benefit for me. Maybe some problems more,
compression needed for data exchange.

Autorouter - in v6 in fact really VERY limited usable. Even easy boards
not succesfully routed. For me - some money waisted. Even the (long
expected) follow-me works very bad and is in fact slower than my hand ;-) !

Multiple OS - sure yes.

For me most important Eagle advantage is the user friendly interface,
fast and practical, better than the competotors.

And easy installation on few PC - as many mentioned, workstation,
laptop, reinstall after system upgrade.

So, lets wait ....

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156219 is a reply to message #156214] Wed, 09 July 2014 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi Grzegorz,
On 07/09/14 14:01, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello Walter,
>
>> We are aware that many of our existing users probably won't like this...
>> OTOH with the current licensing it's hard to see wether users keep to
>> the licensing rules. We still think most of our customers are honest,
>> but we want to concentrate more on countries in Asia or on Russia
>> where abuse of licenses is a problem.
>
> Do you really think the new license method will limit the cracking of
> Eagle program ? I am a bit closer to "Russia and Asia" and the reality
> is a bit different ...
I'm not a licensing expert myself, so I couldn't tell.
We think it's reasonably safe, but realistically you can't avoid it completely...

>
> IMHO the first step to easy use of cracked versions was XML data format,
> without this famous "Kennung" storage in the binary file.
We did it for the sake of XML, what we consider a big advantage
(human readability and changability, versioning etc.).

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> I am one more which will wait for some time and check the + and - one
> the new version.
>
> Best regards


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156222 is a reply to message #156219] Wed, 09 July 2014 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Walter,
>> Do you really think the new license method will limit the cracking of
>> Eagle program ? I am a bit closer to "Russia and Asia" and the reality
>> is a bit different ...
> I'm not a licensing expert myself, so I couldn't tell.
> We think it's reasonably safe, but realistically you can't avoid it completely...

Sure you can't avoid it ... but if the code will be cracked no any
licensig method will be working.

BTW, do you know why Protel is so "lovely" software ? Because a lot of
students and young (and not rich) peopple started with "gold" version ...

>> IMHO the first step to easy use of cracked versions was XML data format,
>> without this famous "Kennung" storage in the binary file.
> We did it for the sake of XML, what we consider a big advantage
> (human readability and changability, versioning etc.).

Yes, but I miss the "development history", of course pretty ciphered.
This was best method to investigate who put the license ... and block them.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156223 is a reply to message #156217] Wed, 09 July 2014 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carsten Wille
Messages: 137
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
On 2014-07-09 15:10, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> XML ... imho no any benefit for me. Maybe some problems more,
> compression needed for data exchange.

XML is very practical. I have written an Excel AddIn I've been using for
many years to generate large symbols in a decent way for another CAD
system. Now I was able to write an output module that directly writes
from Excel into the desired Eagle library.

>
> Autorouter - in v6 in fact really VERY limited usable. Even easy boards
> not succesfully routed. For me - some money waisted. Even the (long
> expected) follow-me works very bad and is in fact slower than my hand ;-) !

I agree. I haven't seen a double sided layout made by the autorouter
that looked acceptable enough to produce it.
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156233 is a reply to message #156223] Thu, 10 July 2014 10:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Carsten ,

>> XML ... imho no any benefit for me. Maybe some problems more,
>> compression needed for data exchange.
>
> XML is very practical. I have written an Excel AddIn I've been using for
> many years to generate large symbols in a decent way for another CAD
> system. Now I was able to write an output module that directly writes
> from Excel into the desired Eagle library.

For such task - sure this is an advantage. But you can use ULP for
similar work.

>> Autorouter - in v6 in fact really VERY limited usable. Even easy boards
>> not succesfully routed. For me - some money waisted. Even the (long
>> expected) follow-me works very bad and is in fact slower than my hand
>> ;-) !
>
> I agree. I haven't seen a double sided layout made by the autorouter
> that looked acceptable enough to produce it.

Even one side ... You can try DIN 64 pin connector, only two connectors
as a test adapter, 1:1 wired. Eagle is not able to do this task properly !

BTW this autorouter is ca 20 years old, maybe more. I remember it was
similar in the old 2.x version !

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156234 is a reply to message #156215] Thu, 10 July 2014 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oliver Betz
Messages: 620
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Thomas Liratsch wrote:

> 1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.

customers also want to protect their IP.

What do you offer for long term support of Eagle installations?

What if Cadsoft goes out of business some day and the customer can't
migrate his license to a new computer to support an old design?

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Munich http://oliverbetz.de/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156239 is a reply to message #156233] Thu, 10 July 2014 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,
On 07/10/14 12:52, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello Carsten ,
>
>>> XML ... imho no any benefit for me. Maybe some problems more,
>>> compression needed for data exchange.
>>
>> XML is very practical. I have written an Excel AddIn I've been using for
>> many years to generate large symbols in a decent way for another CAD
>> system. Now I was able to write an output module that directly writes
>> from Excel into the desired Eagle library.
>
> For such task - sure this is an advantage. But you can use ULP for similar work.
>
>>> Autorouter - in v6 in fact really VERY limited usable. Even easy boards
>>> not succesfully routed. For me - some money waisted. Even the (long
>>> expected) follow-me works very bad and is in fact slower than my hand
>>> ;-) !
>>
>> I agree. I haven't seen a double sided layout made by the autorouter
>> that looked acceptable enough to produce it.
>
> Even one side ... You can try DIN 64 pin connector, only two connectors as a test adapter, 1:1 wired. Eagle is not able
> to do this task properly !
>
> BTW this autorouter is ca 20 years old, maybe more. I remember it was similar in the old 2.x version !
Then why don't you try out our new autorouter in beta version ?
With multithreading and our new TopRouter algorithm.
Or did you already ?

Regards,
Walter Spermann
>
> Best regards


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156240 is a reply to message #156234] Thu, 10 July 2014 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 7/10/2014 7:22 AM, Oliver Betz wrote:
> Thomas Liratsch wrote:
>
>> 1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.
>
> customers also want to protect their IP.
>
> What do you offer for long term support of Eagle installations?
>
> What if Cadsoft goes out of business some day and the customer can't
> migrate his license to a new computer to support an old design?
>
> Oliver
>

Hi Oliver,

I hope you're doing well. The issue you're pointing out is inherent to
any proprietary piece of software you may own, not just Cadsoft. If
Microsoft were to disappear tomorrow many, many people would be hosed.

With that said, your data will never be lost. Should Cadsoft shutdown
tomorrow(please no, I need my job), your files are in an open fully
documented XML format.

You could create your own tool to use the format(crazy talk, few users
would ever go through the trouble), or use one of the existing tools
that can import our data(more reasonble).

hth,
Jorge Garcia
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156241 is a reply to message #156233] Thu, 10 July 2014 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carsten Wille
Messages: 137
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
Hello Grzegorz,

> Hello Carsten ,
>
>>> XML ... imho no any benefit for me. Maybe some problems more,
>>> compression needed for data exchange.
>>
>> XML is very practical. I have written an Excel AddIn I've been using for
>> many years to generate large symbols in a decent way for another CAD
>> system. Now I was able to write an output module that directly writes
>> from Excel into the desired Eagle library.
>
> For such task - sure this is an advantage. But you can use ULP for
> similar work.
>

I don't think so. I'm using Excel to work from scratch (manually entered
pins or import from datasheets) up to the finalized symbol. In between
you can re-arrange pins, directions etc. as long and as often as you
like. This can be done by hand in the sheet or with a GUI including a
preview. An ULP wouldn't give me the possibility to manipulate, once the
symbol has been made.
Please keep in mind, the software was already there, before Eagle
introduced ULPs and XML.

>>> Autorouter - in v6 in fact really VERY limited usable. Even easy boards
>>> not succesfully routed. For me - some money waisted. Even the (long
>>> expected) follow-me works very bad and is in fact slower than my hand
>>> ;-) !
>>
>> I agree. I haven't seen a double sided layout made by the autorouter
>> that looked acceptable enough to produce it.
>
> Even one side ... You can try DIN 64 pin connector, only two connectors
> as a test adapter, 1:1 wired. Eagle is not able to do this task properly !
>
> BTW this autorouter is ca 20 years old, maybe more. I remember it was
> similar in the old 2.x version !
>
> Best regards

An autorouter is only as good as the constrains the user has to set
before start. :-(

Best regards,
Carsten
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156242 is a reply to message #156239] Thu, 10 July 2014 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hi,
......
>> BTW this autorouter is ca 20 years old, maybe more. I remember it was
>> similar in the old 2.x version !
> Then why don't you try out our new autorouter in beta version ?
> With multithreading and our new TopRouter algorithm.
> Or did you already ?

Not yet. But before testing - if the file after using the autorutter is
no more v6 compatible - hmmm, this is more playing than testing. I can
test it in a serious desing. And this design must me editable uder my
licensed version.

From your post : Re: Beta 6.9.1 Uses Same .eaglerc file as EAGLE v6

> The format of library files didn't change at all,
> schematic and board files written with V7 are V6 compatible as long as you don't work with
> hierarchies or the new autorouter.

For me autorouter is only making the wires. So, why the generated wires
are no longer compatible with v6 ?

And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be really
clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be used for the license
control. And node locked .... Now I need only 1 license, and I can work
on my desktop, on my laptop - and if necessary on other computer having
the license file on the pendrive. In fact - the mean time Eagle is
working (one year period) is maybe 1-2% of my work time ;-) !

Some time ago ... eh, this was Klaus time ...

And, sorry, I have no time to play with Eagle. Maybe after Summer time
it will be better.

I will try later, maybe the licensing will be acceptable. Limited time
license and no backward compatibility is sure wrong way for serious design.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156247 is a reply to message #156240] Fri, 11 July 2014 05:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lorenz
Messages: 650
Registered: December 2006
Senior Member
Jorge Garcia wrote:
> [...]
> With that said, your data will never be lost. Should Cadsoft shutdown
> tomorrow(please no, I need my job), your files are in an open fully
> documented XML format.
> [...]

I don't think that is the point here.

In case I want or am forced to change/replace my computer hardware and
this requires a new licence file, I can no longer use the program I
paid for, if the company to issue it does no longer exist.


Otherwise I have no problem with the new licencing.
Using floating licenses and a license server will allow us to reduce
the licence number we need in the company to cover all workstations
8-)
--

Lorenz
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156248 is a reply to message #156240] Fri, 11 July 2014 05:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Jorge !
.....

> I hope you're doing well. The issue you're pointing out is inherent to
> any proprietary piece of software you may own, not just Cadsoft. If
> Microsoft were to disappear tomorrow many, many people would be hosed.

Please dont compate Microsoft with CadSoft !!!! CadSoft is a nice small
company, with really good product, opposite to Microsoft. But the market
is hard ... CadSoft has sure more troubles, and a bankruptcy is more
possible.

If Microsoft disappear - it will be for me no any problem :-D !!!

> With that said, your data will never be lost. Should Cadsoft shutdown
> tomorrow(please no, I need my job), your files are in an open fully
> documented XML format.

Open format is not a solution - a migration will be hard ...

> You could create your own tool to use the format(crazy talk, few users
> would ever go through the trouble), or use one of the existing tools
> that can import our data(more reasonble).

Using ULP it is possible to make any export. This is one of the most
important Eagle's advantages.

Another problem is the comfort of licensing ... especially in case of no
network connection.

I will ask my colleagues about their experience with Altium or similar
software how it works. I know only few things, and they have still some
problems. In many cases out-of-office work was not possible.

Another thing is - this is a "motivation" for hackers to make a working
crack. IMHO best option was the licensing method used until v5, where
the development history was stored.

I hope we can still work with Eagle for many years, I really like this
software, is easy and the development is fast and reliable !

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156250 is a reply to message #156242] Fri, 11 July 2014 08:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/10/14 19:29, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hi,
> .....
>>> BTW this autorouter is ca 20 years old, maybe more. I remember it was
>>> similar in the old 2.x version !
>> Then why don't you try out our new autorouter in beta version ?
>> With multithreading and our new TopRouter algorithm.
>> Or did you already ?
>
> Not yet. But before testing - if the file after using the autorutter is no more v6 compatible - hmmm, this is more
> playing than testing. I can test it in a serious desing. And this design must me editable uder my licensed version.
>
> From your post : Re: Beta 6.9.1 Uses Same .eaglerc file as EAGLE v6
>
>> The format of library files didn't change at all,
>> schematic and board files written with V7 are V6 compatible as long as you don't work with
>> hierarchies or the new autorouter.
>
> For me autorouter is only making the wires. So, why the generated wires are no longer compatible with v6 ?
it's just because of new autorouter paramaters. When saved with version 7, some additional parameters are
stored. When loaded again in version 6 you get warnings, but it's still readable, no loss of data.
(but as long as it's a beta version, you should work with a copy of the original data).

>
> And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be really clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be
> used for the license control.
The server will be available on our website.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

And node locked .... Now I need only 1 license, and I can work on my desktop, on my laptop
> - and if necessary on other computer having the license file on the pendrive. In fact - the mean time Eagle is working
> (one year period) is maybe 1-2% of my work time ;-) !
>
> Some time ago ... eh, this was Klaus time ...
>
> And, sorry, I have no time to play with Eagle. Maybe after Summer time it will be better.
>
> I will try later, maybe the licensing will be acceptable. Limited time license and no backward compatibility is sure
> wrong way for serious design.
>
> Best regards


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156254 is a reply to message #156215] Fri, 11 July 2014 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1351
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
"Thomas Liratsch" skrev i nyhetsmeldingen:
2066799619.01404908672104.JavaMail.jive@flcspu-csapp-01.premierfarnell.com
....

> Not sure I understand your question regarding EAGLE becoming "a product
> more ruled by marked forces?”

OK, that was an unclear description from my side. I was looking at the fact
that Eagle gave a lot of functionality and flexibility for the money. I feel
that was Eagles main advantage. I do not know how Cadsoft set the pricing
before Farnell, but I hope they had a price they could profit from, and
some. The age of Eagle suggest they did set a price we could all live with.

With "marked forces" I mean the idea that the price is lower than people
actually wants to pay, and this idea starts challenging the existing user
base (=me) to actually look into new tools and compare them. This adds a lot
of unneccesary workload on them (=me), unless I pay the "ransom" for new
pricing. OK, I can choose to stay with the old version, but that adds a cost
too.
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156256 is a reply to message #156250] Fri, 11 July 2014 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello ,

>> And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be
>> really clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be
>> used for the license control.
> The server will be available on our website.

What in case of network access ? F.i. in a plane ? Or abroad ?

Regards,
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156258 is a reply to message #156256] Fri, 11 July 2014 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/11/14 13:48, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello ,
>
>>> And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be
>>> really clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be
>>> used for the license control.
>> The server will be available on our website.
>
> What in case of network access ? F.i. in a plane ? Or abroad ?
>
> Regards,
It works within the network where the license server is running.
It also works if you have remote access to the network e.g. by remote desktop.

Regards,
Walter Spermann
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156259 is a reply to message #156258] Fri, 11 July 2014 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello ,
>>
>>>> And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be
>>>> really clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be
>>>> used for the license control.
>>> The server will be available on our website.
>>
>> What in case of network access ? F.i. in a plane ? Or abroad ?
>>
>> Regards,
> It works within the network where the license server is running.
> It also works if you have remote access to the network e.g. by remote
> desktop.

Again - what in case I have no any access to the license server ????

For instance - I have a nice holliday place where is neither GSM nor
Internet connection. And ??? No work ?

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156261 is a reply to message #156259] Fri, 11 July 2014 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/11/14 17:36, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello ,
>>>
>>>> > And I will sure NOT buy any upgrade before the licensing will be
>>>> > really clear and working. F.i. I have no server to be
>>>> > used for the license control.
>>>> The server will be available on our website.
>>>
>>> What in case of network access ? F.i. in a plane ? Or abroad ?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>> It works within the network where the license server is running.
>> It also works if you have remote access to the network e.g. by remote
>> desktop.
>
> Again - what in case I have no any access to the license server ????
>
> For instance - I have a nice holliday place where is neither GSM nor Internet connection. And ??? No work ?
>
> Best regards
I'm afraid not.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156262 is a reply to message #156261] Fri, 11 July 2014 17:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de !:

>> Again - what in case I have no any access to the license server ????

> I'm afraid not.

Thanks for the info.

It means for me the new license system avoid use of new Eagle f.i. in
most trains, on the airport, many places where is no internet
connection. Or needs extra cost for the net connection (like airports).

Good to know, but this is for many users sure not a good news. For big
companies with many engineers it will be maybe no any difference. But
for small ... so, let's wait ....

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156265 is a reply to message #156261] Fri, 11 July 2014 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 11.07.2014 18:54, Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de wrote:

>> For instance - I have a nice holliday place where is neither GSM nor
>> Internet connection. And ??? No work ?


> I'm afraid not.
>

You are kidding I hope?

flexLM offers the possibility of checking out a license for a
user-selectable period from a license server (i.e. borrow one license
out of a pool).

You can even define a "best-before-date" after which the license is
given back automatically to the server (i guess even without internet
access, i think it just expires).

You cannot sell a software that is only working when it has a permanent
internet connection. Reasons: see above

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156270 is a reply to message #156265] Sat, 12 July 2014 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hi Markus ,

>>> For instance - I have a nice holliday place where is neither GSM nor
>>> Internet connection. And ??? No work ?
>
>
>> I'm afraid not.
>>
>
> You are kidding I hope?
>
> flexLM offers the possibility of checking out a license for a
> user-selectable period from a license server (i.e. borrow one license
> out of a pool).
>
> You can even define a "best-before-date" after which the license is
> given back automatically to the server (i guess even without internet
> access, i think it just expires).
>
> You cannot sell a software that is only working when it has a permanent
> internet connection. Reasons: see above

Markus, thanks for the info - it is very important ! I hope you are
right and CadSoft will implement such algorythm and a license will be
valid without internet access for minimum 2-4 weeks.

And ... hmmm, what about freeware ? F.i. to generate the documentation.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156271 is a reply to message #156265] Sat, 12 July 2014 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hi Markus ,

>>> For instance - I have a nice holliday place where is neither GSM nor
>>> Internet connection. And ??? No work ?
>
>
>> I'm afraid not.
>>
>
> You are kidding I hope?
>
> flexLM offers the possibility of checking out a license for a
> user-selectable period from a license server (i.e. borrow one license
> out of a pool).
>
> You can even define a "best-before-date" after which the license is
> given back automatically to the server (i guess even without internet
> access, i think it just expires).
>
> You cannot sell a software that is only working when it has a permanent
> internet connection. Reasons: see above

Markus, thanks for the info - it is very important ! I hope you are
right and CadSoft will implement such algorythm and a license will be
valid without internet access for minimum 2-4 weeks.

And ... hmmm, what about freeware ? F.i. to generate the documentation.
I hope it will be not change.

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156275 is a reply to message #156215] Sun, 13 July 2014 03:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Miles
Messages: 37
Registered: July 2007
Member
Thomas Liratsch wrote:

> 1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.
> Unfortunately we have seen an increase of cracked EAGLE versions in the
> past two years and we need to act and protect EAGLE in a much better
> way. Of course there will never be 100% software protection. We will see
> cracked EAGLE versions in the future and we are all aware of this. But
> we hope with this new license management technology, we can control the
> use of EAGLE in a much better way.

Indeed. With your current copy protection methodology, a new version of
EAGLE will be cracked and distributed by Russian and/or Chinese hackers
within 3 days. Happily, once you switch to FlexLM, it will take them 72
hours.

> 2) Many customers actually asked for such a licenses management system
> that enables them to control multiple licenses on a
> server. In most companies where you have multiple licenses on a server,
> you need a license management system to control the use of the purchased
> licenses, especially where they are required to fulfil compliance rules.

One possibility might be keeping the current system for single-user
licenses, and migrating to server-based licensing for multiuser licenses.

> You have a point when you say some additional effort is necessary now,
> but this also applies for CadSoft as well. Implementing 3rd party
> licensing technology was a significant investment for us, both in terms
> of money and additional effort, but there was no way around it.

I understand, but your customers have plenty of "ways around it,"
ranging from piracy to jumping ship to the competition (which is even
worse from your perspective.)

In general, copy protection bothers no one except for legitimate paying
customers. The bad guys enjoy the challenge, and the good guys are just
trying to get their work done. Nobody "wins" except the copy-protection
vendor.

-- john
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156277 is a reply to message #156240] Sun, 13 July 2014 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oliver Betz
Messages: 620
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Jorge Garcia wrote:

>>> 1) Protect our IP - protect EAGLE.
>>
>> customers also want to protect their IP.
>>
>> What do you offer for long term support of Eagle installations?
>>
>> What if Cadsoft goes out of business some day and the customer can't
>> migrate his license to a new computer to support an old design?

> I hope you're doing well. The issue you're pointing out is inherent to
> any proprietary piece of software you may own, not just Cadsoft. If
> Microsoft were to disappear tomorrow many, many people would be hosed.

Microsoft is no good comparison for many reasons. First, you have to
differentiate between OS and application software.

If I can't activate MS Windows some day, I likely can continue with
other OS and WINE. Not so probable that it will happen unexpectedly so
I can setup a Windows VM early enough for long term support.

For MS Office, compatible software already exists. And I try to avoid
using Office documents for long term documentation exactly due to the
reasons mentioned here. Most of my internal documentation is in HTML,
and I intensify using TeX/LaTeX.

I don't use more specific application software from MS using
"activation".

> With that said, your data will never be lost. Should Cadsoft shutdown
> tomorrow(please no, I need my job), your files are in an open fully
> documented XML format.
>
> You could create your own tool to use the format(crazy talk, few users
> would ever go through the trouble), or use one of the existing tools
> that can import our data(more reasonble).

Can you name such tools?

How well do they work?

Why should I buy them?

I'm just in the painful situation to migrate my mail client. That's
just simple mail, and the software was likely used by many more people
than Eagle users. Nevertheless it is error-prone, annoying and
time-consuming.

So why should I migrate from Eagle to something else just because I
can't transport my license to a new computer? I paid for using it
without time limit so I want to be sure that I can do what I paid for.

With the current system, I can install Eagle on a new computer (or in
a VM running an "old" Windows version if needed) not depending on any
CadSoft server.

Again: An Eagle design might be supported for decades (my products
often have a life span of much more than ten years) and for minor
changes (e.g. package change due to availability) it is not suitable
even to migrate to a new version of Eagle.

The same applies to compiler Software, I had these discussions with
compiler providers and they were relevant in deciding where/what to
buy.

BTW: I used Eagle for more than twenty years. Now, I start from ground
up, so I have to decide what to use the next >10 years, and I'm open
to Eagle alternatives, also more expensive ones.

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Munich http://oliverbetz.de/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156280 is a reply to message #156275] Mon, 14 July 2014 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello John,

.....

> Indeed. With your current copy protection methodology, a new version of
> EAGLE will be cracked and distributed by Russian and/or Chinese hackers
> within 3 days. Happily, once you switch to FlexLM, it will take them 72
> hours.

Possible ...

>> 2) Many customers actually asked for such a licenses management system
>> that enables them to control multiple licenses on a
>> server. In most companies where you have multiple licenses on a server,
>> you need a license management system to control the use of the purchased
>> licenses, especially where they are required to fulfil compliance rules.
>
> One possibility might be keeping the current system for single-user
> licenses, and migrating to server-based licensing for multiuser licenses.

Hmmm, for me it would be good option. But in such case it will be
possible to "multiply" the licenses ...

> In general, copy protection bothers no one except for legitimate paying
> customers. The bad guys enjoy the challenge, and the good guys are just
> trying to get their work done. Nobody "wins" except the copy-protection
> vendor.

Sure :-D !

With one exception. In the files until 5.x (6.x no more) was the editors
serial number included. And it was possible block the editing od files
generated/edited by cracked versions in all next upgrades !!!.

For my knowledge this was really good method !

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156284 is a reply to message #156275] Mon, 14 July 2014 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1351
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
"John Miles" skrev i nyhetsmeldingen: lpt00u$r4n$1@cheetah.cadsoft.de ...
> In general, copy protection bothers no one except for legitimate paying
> customers. The bad guys enjoy the challenge, and the good guys are just
> trying to get their work done. Nobody "wins" except the copy-protection
> vendor.

You got a very valid point. The sales guys at Flexera are agressive and
convincing salesmen. I guess it is easy to get convinced by their arguments
if you don't have any data to beat them with.

I guess it took the entertainment industry some time to figure out how to
deal with this. Well some of it; I still hate having to read the crap meant
for pirates at the beginning of DVD's. It's just opening a big marked for
DVD ripping just to get rid of it.
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156320 is a reply to message #156262] Tue, 15 July 2014 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1456
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 11.07.2014 19:48, schrieb Grzegorz Zalot:
> Hello Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de !:
>
>>> Again - what in case I have no any access to the license server ????
>
>> I'm afraid not.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> It means for me the new license system avoid use of new Eagle f.i. in
> most trains, on the airport, many places where is no internet
> connection. Or needs extra cost for the net connection (like airports).
>
> Good to know, but this is for many users sure not a good news. For big
> companies with many engineers it will be maybe no any difference. But
> for small ... so, let's wait ....
>
> Best regards

Hi Grzegorz,

thank you for the clear question and also thanks to Walter for the clear
answer.

A Software license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable
for me.
So I guess it's good bye eagle :-(

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156324 is a reply to message #156320] Tue, 15 July 2014 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Joern,

Thanks for your reply !
> A Software license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable
> for me.

For me only very very limited ....

> So I guess it's good bye eagle :-(

Hmmm, and what in case I have a valid single user license, and I am
using a cracked version in case of internet absence ???

Now only a theoretical question, but I am quite sure a cracked version
will come, earlier or later.

But I hope it will be not necessary, CadSoft was know as a user very
friendly company !

best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156326 is a reply to message #156320] Tue, 15 July 2014 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,

On 07/15/14 07:51, Joern Paschedag wrote:
> Am 11.07.2014 19:48, schrieb Grzegorz Zalot:
>> Hello Walter.Spermann@cadsoft.de !:
>>
>>>> Again - what in case I have no any access to the license server ????
>>
>>> I'm afraid not.
>>
>> Thanks for the info.
>>
>> It means for me the new license system avoid use of new Eagle f.i. in
>> most trains, on the airport, many places where is no internet
>> connection. Or needs extra cost for the net connection (like airports).
>>
>> Good to know, but this is for many users sure not a good news. For big
>> companies with many engineers it will be maybe no any difference. But
>> for small ... so, let's wait ....
>>
>> Best regards
>
> Hi Grzegorz,
>
> thank you for the clear question and also thanks to Walter for the clear
> answer.
>
> A Software license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable
> for me.
> So I guess it's good bye eagle :-(
Again, this is only if you want to use a multi user license outside of your network !
Single user licenses are not affected by that.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156329 is a reply to message #156324] Tue, 15 July 2014 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1456
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 15.07.2014 11:04, schrieb Grzegorz Zalot:
> Hello Joern,
>
> Thanks for your reply !
>> A Software license depending on an internet connection is not acceptable
>> for me.
>
> For me only very very limited ....
>
>> So I guess it's good bye eagle :-(
>
> Hmmm, and what in case I have a valid single user license, and I am
> using a cracked version in case of internet absence ???
>
> Now only a theoretical question, but I am quite sure a cracked version
> will come, earlier or later.


Unfortunately there are always cracked licenses which lead to the whole
trouble...


>
> But I hope it will be not necessary, CadSoft was know as a user very
> friendly company !
>
> best regards


You are right, but now Farnell gives the orders...


--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156333 is a reply to message #156326] Tue, 15 July 2014 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Walter,

> Again, this is only if you want to use a multi user license outside of your network !
> Single user licenses are not affected by that.

Does it mean in case of single user license I can start Eagle outside of
network ? Any network !!!

regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156334 is a reply to message #156329] Tue, 15 July 2014 12:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Joern,

>> Now only a theoretical question, but I am quite sure a cracked version
>> will come, earlier or later.
>
> Unfortunately there are always cracked licenses which lead to the whole
> trouble...

Yes. But some small amount of cracked versions, limited, is maybe the
best advertisemsnt ! At least in coun tries like Poland, Slovakia etc.

And even expensive programs have got cracked after some time ... The
optimal balance is not easy to choose. IMHO storage of the author in the
file (encrypted) was very good method to avoid "multiplying" of licenses !

> You are right, but now Farnell gives the orders...

Yes, this is maybe the worst thing. Big companies like Farnell doesnt
see the real problems, and few million Euros is for them like 100 for us ...

best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156349 is a reply to message #156334] Tue, 15 July 2014 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi,

I have some other tools licensed as a single user in that way and I do
not have the need of an Internet connection: I can use it everytime and
everywhere (on laptop). My concern is: if Cadsoft stops his businnes I
will no longer able to transfer a license to another computer... In that
case will Cadsoft release an "unprotected" version before shutdown his
activities?

regards

Alberto Vignati



Il 15/07/2014 14:20, Grzegorz Zalot ha scritto:
> Hello Joern,
>
>>> Now only a theoretical question, but I am quite sure a cracked version
>>> will come, earlier or later.
>>
>> Unfortunately there are always cracked licenses which lead to the whole
>> trouble...
>
> Yes. But some small amount of cracked versions, limited, is maybe the
> best advertisemsnt ! At least in coun tries like Poland, Slovakia etc.
>
> And even expensive programs have got cracked after some time ... The
> optimal balance is not easy to choose. IMHO storage of the author in the
> file (encrypted) was very good method to avoid "multiplying" of licenses !
>
>> You are right, but now Farnell gives the orders...
>
> Yes, this is maybe the worst thing. Big companies like Farnell doesnt
> see the real problems, and few million Euros is for them like 100 for us
> ...
>
> best regards
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156350 is a reply to message #156181] Tue, 15 July 2014 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 07.07.2014 18:43, Walter Spermann wrote:

> The mechanism of borrowing and returning is something we considered.
> We didn't do it so far because it's significantly more effort to implement.

Please consider to implement it ASAP, otherwise my institute will not
buy an upgrade and in the long run switch to a diffent EDA system.

I'm not willing to spent money buying an additional dedicated single
user license to be able to work offline for extended periods when we
actually have a 3 seat license paid for, just because I cannot reach my
license server.

Autodesk Inventor implements this borrowing scheme and it would be an
acceptable compromise for us.

I still think the old license system was way better, but I'm pretty sure
CadSoft will find out by themselves when they have to employ extra staff
just for handling the licensemanager-induced support requests....

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156352 is a reply to message #156064] Tue, 15 July 2014 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeff mitchell
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
I will not upgrade to v7.0, or any version with this licensing scheme,
likely.

It is a 'non-feature' - an upgrade that has some value but also has a
huge negative. One step forward, two steps back. DRM of any form is
annoying, but we all live in the real world, not the ideal one; still,
we also know pirates will modify the binary and leave us  actual
customers with the negatives. I'm a hobbyist so could get by (sort of)
on the free edition, but made the leap of faith to the hobbyist license
since I really like the product and the community, and wanted to support
where I could, jumping in the water with both feet. But this new
licensing scheme is awful and annoying.

It really saddens me that I may be staying with eagle-6.5.

Please consider a less painful scheme, that does not _take away features
for paying customers_.

This feels like the Windows Vista and Windows  8 edition of Eagle :)

jeff

--
To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
http://www.element14.com/community/message/120535
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156373 is a reply to message #156333] Wed, 16 July 2014 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
On 07/15/14 14:16, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
> Hello Walter,
>
>> Again, this is only if you want to use a multi user license outside of
>> your network !
>> Single user licenses are not affected by that.
>
> Does it mean in case of single user license I can start Eagle outside of
> network ? Any network !!!
Yes, of course !

Walter Spermann

>
> regards


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
---------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156397 is a reply to message #156373] Thu, 17 July 2014 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeff mitchell
Messages: 2
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
Can you clarify 'single user'?

Is a Hobbyist (paid!) license a single user license in this definition?

Given a single hobbyist license, can I install on multiple machines?
Laptop, desktops, virtual machine, linux under wine, tablet.. all just
me, but I do get around :) I tend to have a number of installs, and keep
all my files on my home NAS or google drive, etc
Can I install without an internet connection? (not a worry really)
Can I run without an internet connection? (a concern, due to sometimes
unreliable net)

jeff

--
To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
http://www.element14.com/community/message/120689
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156403 is a reply to message #156180] Thu, 17 July 2014 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lubos Medovarsky
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Junior Member
Hi Walter,

The first Farnell's CadSoft post-acquisition marketing campaign
motivated me to buy Eagle 6 ELR and invest time and additional money to
learn this tool. It cost me month's income at that time. If I understand
correctly, the licensing policy is switching to DRM because of user
distrust? This is disappointing for at least one of your fair playing
customers.

Add few years ahead, and my investment will go to moral bit rot. By
upgrading to v7 will make it go bit rot even faster, if CadSoft division
or licensing servers or re-licensing web interfaces are shut down by
management, for whatever reason, and broken customer's hardware needs a
replacement.

Considering that my favorite "electronic drugstore" is managed by the
same management who made this licensing decision, this decision will
probably influence my considerations when ordering components to look
for alternative distributors.

Hopefully this backlash, as seen on many other web sites, will make your
management think harder.


Cheers,

Lubos Medovarsky
Slovakia

--
To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
http://www.element14.com/community/message/120699
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156404 is a reply to message #156403] Thu, 17 July 2014 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Lubos,

Hmmm, "electronics drugstore" :-D !!! FYI I cant remember my last order
in this store ... ;-) !

Now very important info for single users. I asked CadSoft what in case
of hardware upgrade, computer sale or lost ... I got the answer there is
a special form to sign and they will unlock a new Id. I hope a typical
period to renew hardware of 2-4 years will be accepted ...

In fact this is similar to the old licensing method (no network
conenction necessary) with two exceptions :

1. The number of installed instances will be strictly under control, max
two (unfortunalety, I need three ... Workstation, laptop and SMT machine
PC ! )

2. The license system exists as long as the CadSoft company exists ...

For me personally this is a relative good info. More interesting are the
new functions - are they worth near 0,5 kEur or not ... Lets wait and
test ...

Best regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156405 is a reply to message #156404] Thu, 17 July 2014 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 17.07.2014 13:09, Grzegorz Zalot wrote:
I asked CadSoft what in case
> of hardware upgrade, computer sale or lost ... I got the answer there is
> a special form to sign and they will unlock a new Id. I hope a typical
> period to renew hardware of 2-4 years will be accepted ...

I sign a document "I will not distribute pirate copies" directly if they
just stay with the old license system :-)

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156407 is a reply to message #156397] Thu, 17 July 2014 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hi,

On 07/17/14 05:04, jeff mitchell wrote:
> Can you clarify 'single user'?
single user is a license issued for one or two computers.
The license only works on that/these computers.
No matter if hobbyist, standard or professional.

>
> Is a Hobbyist (paid!) license a single user license in this definition?
>
> Given a single hobbyist license, can I install on multiple machines?
You can install and license EAGLE on these 2 machines.

> Laptop, desktops, virtual machine, linux under wine, tablet.. all just
> me, but I do get around :) I tend to have a number of installs, and keep
> all my files on my home NAS or google drive, etc
> Can I install without an internet connection? (not a worry really)
Yes!

> Can I run without an internet connection? (a concern, due to sometimes
> unreliable net)
Yes!

For details you may also check our license conditions at
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/lizenzbedingungen
HTH.

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> jeff
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> http://www.element14.com/community/message/120689


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Spermann
Lead Developer
CadSoft Computer GmbH
Pleidolfweg 15
84568 Pleiskirchen
Tel.: 08635/6989-10
www.cadsoft.de
---------------------------------------------------------------
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Thomas Liratsch
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156408 is a reply to message #156405] Thu, 17 July 2014 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Markus Rudolf !:

> I sign a document "I will not distribute pirate copies" directly if they
> just stay with the old license system :-)

This is evident ;-) !

IMHO more important would be storing of editors serial number in the
files ....

But for me 3 copies would be optimal ....

regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156410 is a reply to message #156408] Thu, 17 July 2014 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Omicron
Messages: 1
Registered: July 2014
Junior Member
I've been a user of Eagle for a couple of years now. I own a
professional license with all the bells and whistles. As some others
here I regularly use Eagle on 3 different computers: one in the lab, one
in the office and a laptop I carry around to customers.

After learning about the new license scheme I doubt I will be upgrading.
I do not see why I would pay money to end up with a product that allows
me to do less. Yes, there are the new features, but they do not weigh up
to the inconvenience of this new licensing madness.

Most likely I will be sticking to version 6 until I find another CAD
product to replace Eagle. My only hope is that enough people speak up in
forums like these for Farnell or CADSOFT to see some sense. Regardless
of any copy protection scheme they choose to implement, I'm quite sure a
cracked version will be on the net in weeks. The only thing that's being
accomplished here is to alienate existing paying customers like myself.

Regards,
Kurt

--
To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
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Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156411 is a reply to message #156410] Thu, 17 July 2014 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grzegorz Zalot
Messages: 712
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Hello Kurt,

.....

> After learning about the new license scheme I doubt I will be upgrading.
> I do not see why I would pay money to end up with a product that allows
> me to do less. Yes, there are the new features, but they do not weigh up
> to the inconvenience of this new licensing madness.

I agree :-( ... I will wait as well and test all new features. The new
autorouter is still not sensible for me.

> Most likely I will be sticking to version 6 until I find another CAD
> product to replace Eagle. My only hope is that enough people speak up in
> forums like these for Farnell or CADSOFT to see some sense. Regardless
> of any copy protection scheme they choose to implement, I'm quite sure a
> cracked version will be on the net in weeks.

This is possible.

I am afraid this concept (new license system) was suggested by high
staff in Farnell not in CadSoft. For me this is typical "schematic" and
modern decision which is unfortunately not matching realistic
environment. Let see next months ...

regards
--
Grzegorz Zalot

complex ltd.
office tel/fax : +48 32 2505840
mobil : +48 501 301515

http://www.complex.org.pl/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156421 is a reply to message #156064] Fri, 18 July 2014 04:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
janetroberts
Messages: 1
Registered: July 2014
Location: San Francisco, CA
Junior Member
Another long-time user here. I just registered to chime in and say our company will not be upgrading, due to the new licensing terms.

Our company has at least 5 EAGLE Pro licenses for our engineers. We've been solid customers since version 4, but locking licenses to individual machines (or requiring a license server that doesn't allow our people to work on the road) is just too much.

Sorry Cadsoft, but we're just not going to do it. For the moment, we'll be sticking to v6, while we evaluate whether KiCad fills our needs of if we're going to suck it up and buy a full set of Altium licenses. As someone else said, if we're going to have to have a ridiculous license setup, we might as well get better software for it.

Really disappointing.

It's unfortunate that you've decided to treat your most loyal customers like criminals.
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156451 is a reply to message #156421] Sat, 19 July 2014 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oliver Betz
Messages: 620
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Janet Roberts wrote:

[...]

> going to suck it up and buy a full set of Altium licenses. As someone else
> said, if we're going to have to have a ridiculous license setup, we might
> as well get better software for it.

Exactly my opinion and strategy.

Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Munich http://oliverbetz.de/
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156486 is a reply to message #156421] Mon, 21 July 2014 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KP
Messages: 39
Registered: January 2009
Member
Il 18/07/2014 06:57, Janet Roberts ha scritto:
> Another long-time user here. I just registered to chime in and say our
> company will not be upgrading, due to the new licensing terms.
>

Hello,

I'm also a long time licensed user (V3-V4-V5-V6 full Prof. version).
I have the same "bad" feelings on this new licensing system, and will
likely not upgrade (-> quit using Eagle in 2-5 yrs.).

I have an Altium license from work and consider buying it.
Also looking into DipTrace as an Eagle-level/cost alternative.

Kim


---
Questa e-mail è priva di virus e malware perché è attiva la protezione avast! Antivirus.
http://www.avast.com
Why not "old" or "new" licensing scheme as an alternative? (was: Version 7.0 licensing) [message #156555 is a reply to message #156215] Tue, 22 July 2014 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 09.07.2014 14:24, Thomas Liratsch wrote:

> 2) Many customers actually asked for such a licenses management system
> that enables them to control multiple licenses on a
> server. In most companies where you have multiple licenses on a server,
> you need a license management system to control the use of the purchased
> licenses, especially where they are required to fulfil compliance rules.

I still see no reason why CadSoft could not support the old licensing
scheme as it was in V6 and *additionally* for the companies that want
this license manager crap just provide it as alternative.

Just let the customers choose when they order.

Technically it should also not be a problem:

Either EAGLE finds a valid old V6-style license.key file, or is able to
checkout a license from license server or the local node locked license
manager (may need some small changes to the setup routine).

Everyone happy: long term customers and large companies.

It's maybe a bit more effort from a coding point of view, but I think
then the lengthy discussion about the licensing will stop and CadSoft
actually can tell from the sales numbers after a year or so that the
vast majority doesn't want a new licensing scheme.

If more than 50% want a license manager solution after a year or so, so
be it, I will give in.

Markus
Re: Why not "old" or "new" licensing scheme as an alternative? [message #156572 is a reply to message #156555] Wed, 23 July 2014 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 181
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 22.07.2014 22:55, Markus Rudolf wrote:

> Either EAGLE finds a valid old V6-style license.key file, or is able to
> checkout a license from license server or the local node locked license
> manager (may need some small changes to the setup routine).
>
> Everyone happy: long term customers and large companies.
>
> It's maybe a bit more effort from a coding point of view, but I think
> then the lengthy discussion about the licensing will stop and CadSoft
> actually can tell from the sales numbers after a year or so that the
> vast majority doesn't want a new licensing scheme.
>
> If more than 50% want a license manager solution after a year or so, so
> be it, I will give in.
>

I think even the code is still in, I guess the freemium option works via
the old mechanism.

Markus
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156663 is a reply to message #156421] Mon, 28 July 2014 08:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Janet Roberts schrieb:
> Another long-time user here. I just registered to chime in and say our
> company will not be upgrading, due to the new licensing terms.
>
> Sorry Cadsoft, but we're just not going to do it. For the moment, we'll be
> sticking to v6, while we evaluate whether KiCad fills our needs of if we're
> going to suck it up and buy a full set of Altium licenses. As someone else
> said, if we're going to have to have a ridiculous license setup, we might
> as well get better software for it.
>
> Really disappointing.
>
> It's unfortunate that you've decided to treat your most loyal customers
> like criminals.

JFTR: +1

Tilmann

(using EAGLE since V1 and currently still using V5 since V6 wasn't worth
the upgrade cost for me.)
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #156684 is a reply to message #156663] Tue, 29 July 2014 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Tilmann Reh wrote:
> (using EAGLE since V1 and currently still using V5 since V6 wasn't worth
> the upgrade cost for me.)

The main (only?) reason I upgraded to version 6 was to be able to work with XML files. If I wasn't collaborating with others, I would have stayed with v5...

Genius move on Cadsoft's part; I think the real reason to introduce XML files was to force everyone to buy the upgrade... Razz
Re: Version 7.0 licensing [message #157121 is a reply to message #156403] Fri, 22 August 2014 11:10 Go to previous message
Lubos Medovarsky
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2009
Junior Member
Hi All,

This is a reply to myself regarding rolling back from DRM to old
licensing:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/2014/08/anderung-am-eagle-v7-lizenzmanagement/

Thank you for listening. I will upgrade to release 7.x.

LM

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