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Home » CadSoft Support Forums » eagle.betatest » Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished?
Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished? [message #155850] Tue, 17 June 2014 16:24 Go to next message
Eric Stevens
Messages: 43
Registered: July 2008
Member
Maybe I missed something in the notes or the new Help docs, but it seems like the hierarchal ports
aren't fully functional yet, or if they are, they're really user unfriendly.

1. You can't move a port location unless you CTRL + left click. How about just click 'move' then click
on the port like all other objects?

2. You can only delete a port from the command line (port 'netname' delete) or with CTRL + left click.
Why not add click 'delete' then on the port?

3. You can only change direction of a port from the command line (port 'netname' <direction>). Add an
edit entry for changing direction.

4. If you rename a net in a module schematic, the hierarchal page port name doesn't get updated.

5. Along with #4, you can't rename a port. You have to delete it and then add the renamed port.

6. Shift + left clicking on a hierarchal net attempts to add a port to a module, sometimes. I have
only been able to reproduce this once and I'm not sure how I got there.

7. The only way to set a module offset is via the command line or using the module's property
dialog after the module is in place. It would be nice to have a combobox at the top to set this after
selecting the module to place.

It seems that it could have been easier to assign the ports and their direction on the module's
schematic page using XREFs rather than being able to select any net from a schematic. Place the module
where all the ports and their directions are already assigned and placed. Move and/or delete ports as
desired.

Again, maybe I missed something from the notes. I understand this is a beta and things will change.

On a side note, please have an option to switch back to the previous icons. If I hadn't been using
Eagle for 10+ years and know where everything is and mostly use the command line, this would be like
trying to pick out my grey car while being in a helicopter 1000m up looking at a parking lot full of
identical grey cars. With this taking so long to do so I get annoyed looking and go buy a new car.

Eric
Re: Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished? [message #155869 is a reply to message #155850] Wed, 18 June 2014 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Spermann
Messages: 540
Registered: August 2010
Senior Member
Hello Erik,

thanks for your feedback ! See below.

On 06/17/14 18:24, Eric Stevens wrote:
> Maybe I missed something in the notes or the new Help docs, but it seems like the hierarchal ports
> aren't fully functional yet, or if they are, they're really user unfriendly.
>
> 1. You can't move a port location unless you CTRL + left click. How about just click 'move' then click
> on the port like all other objects?
>
> 2. You can only delete a port from the command line (port 'netname' delete) or with CTRL + left click.
> Why not add click 'delete' then on the port?
some general things:
Ports are belonging to the module and not to a particular module instance.
If you have many module instances of the same module, they all have the same ports according to the
module. The same is for the module instance's width and height.
If you adjust that (with MOVE and CTRL-click, same like resizing rectangles), all module instances
of the module are adjusted as well.
If you move a module instance's port, the ports from the other module
instances are adjusted as well. There's only one definition per module, it's instances are all
identical.

If it would be so easy to move the ports around or resize the module instances,
you might be surprised about the effects (e.g. if many instances on several sheets and a net
attached on that port, nets get misaligned). The idea is to consider a module instance as a unity
like a library symbol.

One strength of our concept is that you can make Hierarchical Design without having to use extra
symbol libraries for the module instances.

>
> 3. You can only change direction of a port from the command line (port 'netname' <direction>). Add an
> edit entry for changing direction.
You can change the direction as well with the properties dialog.
You can compare this with attributes where the attribute command is also used for changing existing
attribute's values. There's also no 'CHANGE ATTRIBUTE', but I get your point.

>
> 4. If you rename a net in a module schematic, the hierarchal page port name doesn't get updated.
Our idea is to leave a big degree of freedom to the user and leave warning about unlogical (or not
yet logical) things to the ERC.
When renaming the net in the module it's not clear if the user wants to rename the port as well
(= export the renamed net) or if he wants to detach it from the port and keep it internal.
There's an ERC warning about ports not having a net 'counterpart' in the module.

With EAGLE's HD you can also make a 'Top - Down Design':
You start with the main schematic and define a few modules, but just their interfaces (ports)
and use them on main level without having the module's content yet.
This is the 'High Level Design', the detail design of the modules may be done later by other
persons.
If the detail design is changed (net renaming), the high level design (port name) should not be
changed automatically.

>
> 5. Along with #4, you can't rename a port. You have to delete it and then add the renamed port.
Agreed, I hope we can add this in one of next betas.

>
> 6. Shift + left clicking on a hierarchal net attempts to add a port to a module, sometimes. I have
> only been able to reproduce this once and I'm not sure how I got there.
If you have it reproducable, pls. let us know.

>
> 7. The only way to set a module offset is via the command line or using the module's property
> dialog after the module is in place. It would be nice to have a combobox at the top to set this after
> selecting the module to place.
It can also be changed with the properties dialog. It seems you want to have this to keep it
for subsequent instances of the same module, but that's not possible because it leads to name
conflicts. You have to change it for each instance or keep it to 0 (<=> composite notation).

>
> It seems that it could have been easier to assign the ports and their direction on the module's
> schematic page using XREFs rather than being able to select any net from a schematic. Place the module
> where all the ports and their directions are already assigned and placed. Move and/or delete ports as
> desired.
Currently we only expect that each exported net has a label and issue an ERC warning if not.
We can handle this more strictly if more customers think so.

>
> Again, maybe I missed something from the notes. I understand this is a beta and things will change.
Our documentation is not 100% yet, but feel free to try out more. We also support an arbitrary depth
of the hierarchy and hierarchy using modules with assemby variants.

>
> On a side note, please have an option to switch back to the previous icons. If I hadn't been using
> Eagle for 10+ years and know where everything is and mostly use the command line, this would be like
> trying to pick out my grey car while being in a helicopter 1000m up looking at a parking lot full of
> identical grey cars. With this taking so long to do so I get annoyed looking and go buy a new car.
Interesting association :-) ! The icons have been designed with the help of a graphics specialist
and also internally our opinions are quite different. We are open for changing stuff and hope to get
more feedback. Are there some you find particularly bad ? Are there some you like ?

Regards,
Walter Spermann

>
> Eric
>


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Re: Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished? [message #155874 is a reply to message #155850] Wed, 18 June 2014 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lorenz
Messages: 643
Registered: December 2006
Senior Member
Eric Stevens wrote:
> [...]
> On a side note, please have an option to switch back to the
> previous icons. If I hadn't been using Eagle for 10+ years
> and know where everything is and mostly use the command line,
> this would be like trying to pick out my grey car while being
> in a helicopter 1000m up looking at a parking lot full of
> identical grey cars. With this taking so long to do so I get
> annoyed looking and go buy a new car.

I'd like to second that.

The new symbols are to much gray in gray and blurred and therefore
missing contrast.

And please keep an eye out for the red/green hampered 8-)
--

Lorenz
Re: Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished? [message #155879 is a reply to message #155874] Wed, 18 June 2014 16:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1429
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 18.06.2014 16:12, schrieb Lorenz:
> Eric Stevens wrote:
>> [...]
>> On a side note, please have an option to switch back to the
>> previous icons. If I hadn't been using Eagle for 10+ years
>> and know where everything is and mostly use the command line,
>> this would be like trying to pick out my grey car while being
>> in a helicopter 1000m up looking at a parking lot full of
>> identical grey cars. With this taking so long to do so I get
>> annoyed looking and go buy a new car.
>
> I'd like to second that.
>
> The new symbols are to much gray in gray and blurred and therefore
> missing contrast.
>
> And please keep an eye out for the red/green hampered 8-)
>

The old icons were quite OK. The new ones are hardly to distinguish and
contain imo too much squiggle.
In other words: Fire the designer :-(

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Beta 6.91.1 hierarchical modules and ports unfinished? [message #155883 is a reply to message #155879] Wed, 18 June 2014 17:28 Go to previous message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
(Copied from an email I wrote last night...)

I think the icons are going to take a while to get used to.  I do like
the new stop action icon and the copy, ERC and triangular error command
buttons, but I prefer the old group, delete, rotate and move.  (The new
group looks more like a drawing tool to me, the trash can looks more
like an oriental water barrel or lantern, rotate, well, that just looks
odd, and the move icon looks more like an explode icon.)  The ULP button
is absolutely unreadable for me and it took me a bit to realize that the
icon that looks like a triple bar graph is the library button.  And in
the control panel, I couldn't tell what the green on gray icon was until
I saw that the name ended in ".brd"...

BTW, I've always meant to ask, why aren't the copy and paste icons side
by side in the command button bar?  Of course, that leads me to the
question of whether it's possible to move the command buttons around
and/or make a custom button bar.  I've made my own command texts and I
assign keys for most things I do, but it would be nice to be able to
customize the actual command button bar too.

Is it possible to turn on or off the actions, parameters, and command
buttons separately for the schematic and board editors?  When I use the
right click menu, it affects both.  I'd love to leave the parameters bar
off of the schematic but keep it on the board editor.  Sometimes I mess
up and change to some other grid where the electrical connections don't
work.  (Is this something I might be able to do in eagle.scr?)  Also,
when changing the User Interface parameters from the Option menu, it
would be nice to have an "Apply" button in addition to the OK and
Cancel.

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