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How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #136134] Sat, 26 February 2011 13:22 Go to next message
Shareef Jalloq
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2010
Junior Member
Hi there,

I was hoping someone could give me the recommended flow for creating a
library package with a thermal pad. I'm using an LME49600 which has 5
pins and a thermal pad. The pad is electrically connected internally
to Vee.

I initially tried just marking a tStop region in the shape of the pad
hoping that if I just drew a polygon over it in the layout editor and
hit ratsnest, all would work out. All I got was a polygon around the
pad not connected to it.

I then tried to draw a polygon in the package and name it something but
I discovered you can't name polygons. A square pad would work I guess
but this isn't the shape of the pad which is in the shape of a 'T'.

Any pointers on the correct way of doing this? The demo board doesn't
have the pad polygon connected to the Vee pin so that shouldn't be an
issue.

Thanks, Shareef.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #136135 is a reply to message #136134] Sat, 26 February 2011 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
"Shareef Jalloq" <<private_email>> wrote in message
news:ikaurh$bid$<private_email>...
> Hi there,
>
>
> I initially tried just marking a tStop region in the shape of the pad
> hoping that if I just drew a polygon over it in the layout editor and hit
> ratsnest, all would work out. All I got was a polygon around the pad not
> connected to it.
>
>



When you tried to make a polygon in the editor did you give it the net name?
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #136149 is a reply to message #136135] Sat, 26 February 2011 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shareef Jalloq
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2010
Junior Member
On 2011-02-26 16:31:22 +0000, Doug said:
>
> When you tried to make a polygon in the editor did you give it the net name?

When I created the library part, the package didn't have a name for the
thermal pad. You can't assign a name to a polygon in the library
package editor which was my problem. You can do that with a pad, but
the pad can only be rectangular and not the T shape that is required.

Thanks.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #136173 is a reply to message #136134] Mon, 28 February 2011 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A. Zaffran
Messages: 2532
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
Am 26.02.2011 14:22, schrieb Shareef Jalloq:
> Hi there,
>
> I was hoping someone could give me the recommended flow for creating a
> library package with a thermal pad. I'm using an LME49600 which has 5
> pins and a thermal pad. The pad is electrically connected internally to
> Vee.
>
> I initially tried just marking a tStop region in the shape of the pad
> hoping that if I just drew a polygon over it in the layout editor and
> hit ratsnest, all would work out. All I got was a polygon around the pad
> not connected to it.
>
> I then tried to draw a polygon in the package and name it something but
> I discovered you can't name polygons. A square pad would work I guess
> but this isn't the shape of the pad which is in the shape of a 'T'.
>
> Any pointers on the correct way of doing this? The demo board doesn't
> have the pad polygon connected to the Vee pin so that shouldn't be an
> issue.
>
> Thanks, Shareef.
>

Attached the device as example.
Set in DRC menu | Clearance | Same Signals | SMD - SMD to 0.0mm.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

Alfred Zaffran
--
_____________________________________________________________
Alfred Zaffran Support
CadSoft Computer GmbH Hotline: 08635-698930
Pleidolfweg 15 FAX: 08635-698940
84568 Pleiskirchen eMail: <<private_email>>
Web: <www.cadsoft.de>
Registergericht: Amtsgericht Traunstein HRB 5573
Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Klaus Schmidinger, Bodo Badnowitz
_____________________________________________________________
  • Attachment: LME49600.lbr
    (Size: 3.18KB, Downloaded 331 times)
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #136178 is a reply to message #136173] Mon, 28 February 2011 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shareef Jalloq
Messages: 12
Registered: July 2010
Junior Member
On 2011-02-28 07:48:11 +0000, A. Zaffran said:
> Attached the device as example.
> Set in DRC menu | Clearance | Same Signals | SMD - SMD to 0.0mm.
>
>
> Alfred Zaffran

Thanks a lot.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137012 is a reply to message #136134] Tue, 29 March 2011 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
I am also having this problem. I cannot name my polygon to the name I want! If I try to do this, the end result is the dialog window where you write the name just dissappears after you click on the polygon edge, and the polygon remains the same. It's very strange in the layout editor, I can name my polygo whatever I need, but in the component editor, it simply ignores my NAME request!

In modern lingo : What's up with that y'all?

or eighties version: Bummer dude, this polygon is having, like, an identity crisis, or like, identiphobia?
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137016 is a reply to message #137012] Tue, 29 March 2011 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Redcutlass wrote on Tue, 29 March 2011 13:13

but in the component editor, it simply ignores my NAME request!

I think you mean the package editor?

It would be nice if you could draw arbitrary stuff and have that be part of a pad such that the DRC doesn't create a flood of errors. However, you can't. Any time you want a connection point you have to start with a pad. You can then add copper to it as you like. That will result in the right copper, but the DRC will give you lots of overlap errors.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137028 is a reply to message #137016] Tue, 29 March 2011 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
Olin wrote on Tue, 29 March 2011 13:46
Redcutlass wrote on Tue, 29 March 2011 13:13

but in the component editor, it simply ignores my NAME request!

I think you mean the package editor?

That will result in the right copper, but the DRC will give you lots of overlap errors.



Yes, sorry, I meant package editor.

Actually that seems to be exactly the problem: Even if I place a pad, the copper ploygon I place around it, to mold to the shape I desire, does not "connect" to the polygon. I wish I could explain it better... When I fill my layout with ratsnest, it just goes all over the GND area, totally ignoring the tStop layer I made for it. IsnT' that what the tStop (or bStop) layer does? At least, that's how the SMD pads are treated...

thanks!
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137031 is a reply to message #137028] Tue, 29 March 2011 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Redcutlass wrote on Tue, 29 March 2011 15:42

Actually that seems to be exactly the problem: Even if I place a pad, the copper ploygon I place around it,

That makes no sense. If you place another copper polygon completely over a pad, of course you won't get thermals. The pad itself will generate copper gaps for the thermals, but your explicit polygon will put copper there anyway.

Quote:

IsnT' that what the tStop (or bStop) layer does?

It's not clear what you think they are supposed to do. The layers are well documented in the help. Things drawn in the tStop and bStop layers make holes in the top and bottom solder mask, respectively. I can't even guess why you think this has anything to do with thermals. You really need to read the help for layers.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137033 is a reply to message #137031] Tue, 29 March 2011 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
Actually I don't understand why you say it generates holes...
I might need to read the help section on tStop, but I know that there were no holes generated in our boards on the tStop layer...

I looked in the pdf Manual and they donT' mention much detail about the t and b Stop layers...
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137034 is a reply to message #137033] Tue, 29 March 2011 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary Gofstein
Messages: 501
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
On 3/29/2011 3:10 PM, Owen wrote:
> Actually I don't understand why you say it generates holes...
> I might need to read the help section on tStop, but I know that there were
> no holes generated in our boards on the tStop layer...
>
> I looked in the pdf Manual and they donT' mention much detail about the t
> and b Stop layers...
maybe you are confusing *Stop ( negative solder mask) with *Restrict (
negative copper in fills) ???
Re: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137035 is a reply to message #137033] Tue, 29 March 2011 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Pearce
Messages: 144
Registered: January 2008
Senior Member
On Tue, 29 Mar 2011, Owen wrote to us saying :
>Actually I don't understand why you say it generates holes...
>I might need to read the help section on tStop, but I know that there were
>no holes generated in our boards on the tStop layer...

Try reading what he said:

>Things drawn in the tStop and bStop layers make
>holes in the top and bottom solder mask, respectively.

So there's no mention of holes in the board, nor of holes "generated in
the tStop layer". It's quite simple, so let's try fewer syllables:

The tStop and bStop layers define where the SOLDER MASK is NOT present.
That is, they define the HOLES in the SOLDER MASK. Please note that this
is the SOLDER MASK. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with board holes or
copper traces.

If you want to keep a polygon (or the autorouter) away from somewhere,
you need the tRestrict layer. This is all explained in the help, so
perhaps you should read it.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137055 is a reply to message #136134] Wed, 30 March 2011 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
Well Mr Pearce,
as much as I thank you for your help, I must admit that I am not as knowledgeable using Eagle as you might have thought I was. That is why I didn't understand (and still don't) why there are supposed to be holes in the tStop layer, what they do, nor how come it is one of the only two layers that are generated automaticall for a SMD pad. there might be something (or more than one thing) that I don't understand, that's obvious, but if I did know, then I obviously wouldn't be posting on this forum, eh?

So, no need to insinuate something by saying that I need less syllables in order to understand, or telling me to read the help file when I don't even know specifically what to look for... It is hard to know what to look for when you think you've looked at everything you could think of, and then there's the things one doesn't think of...

In any case your explanation did help me out. I shall try this polygon perimeter-delimitation method with the tRestrict layer.

sincerely,

Redcutlass
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137063 is a reply to message #137055] Wed, 30 March 2011 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1294
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 3/30/2011 12:29 PM, Owen wrote:
> Well Mr Pearce,
> as much as I thank you for your help, I must admit that I am not as
> knowledgeable using Eagle as you might have thought I was. That is why I
> didn't understand (and still don't) why there are supposed to be holes in
> the tStop layer, what they do, nor how come it is one of the only two
> layers that are generated automaticall for a SMD pad. there might be
> something (or more than one thing) that I don't understand, that's obvious,
> but if I did know, then I obviously wouldn't be posting on this forum, eh?
>
> So, no need to insinuate something by saying that I need less syllables in
> order to understand, or telling me to read the help file when I don't even
> know specifically what to look for... It is hard to know what to look for
> when you think you've looked at everything you could think of, and then
> there's the things one doesn't think of...
>
> In any case your explanation did help me out. I shall try this polygon
> perimeter-delimitation method with the tRestrict layer.
>
> sincerely,
>
> Redcutlass

Hi Redcutlass,

I'm sure Mr. Pearce didn't mean anything by it. To understand what the
tStop and bStop layers do you need to look at a PCB. Whenever you have
smd components, the pads of the components need to remain exposed once
the board is manufactured, otherwise they'll get covered with
soldermask(this is gives PCBs their classic green color) and you won't
be able to solder parts to the board.

The function of the tStop and bStop is to indicate what areas need to be
void of soldermask so that the copper pad can show through. This is why
features are automatically drawn on the tStop layer whenver you create
an smd pad for your package. These voids are what Olin referred to as
"holes", though I could see how that term could be confusing to a new user.

If you want the autorouter to avoid a certain area then as already
mentioned you would draw features in the appropriate restrict layer.

hth,
Jorge Garcia
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137084 is a reply to message #137055] Thu, 31 March 2011 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Redcutlass wrote on Wed, 30 March 2011 12:29

That is why I didn't understand (and still don't) why there are supposed to be holes in the tStop layer, what they do, nor how come it is one of the only two layers that are generated automaticall for a SMD pad.

It seems now the real problem is not as much your understanding of Eagle, but that you don't understand how PC boards work and how they are made. If you did, it would be intuitive how some of the Eagle layers map to layers of a PCB.

Briefly, a PCB can the thought of as a sandwich of layers. For simple double sided boards from top to bottom these are the top silkscreen, top soldermask, top copper, the PCB material itself (usually FR4 fiberglass), bottom copper, and bottom soldermask. You might also have a bottom silkscreen for a more complicated board.

Go read up on PCB construction, then how the Eagle layers map to that will make sense.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137109 is a reply to message #137084] Thu, 31 March 2011 14:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
Olin wrote on Thu, 31 March 2011 07:27
It seems now the real problem is not as much your understanding of Eagle, but that you don't understand how PC boards work and how they are made. If you did, it would be intuitive how some of the Eagle layers map to layers of a PCB.

Briefly, a PCB can the thought of as a sandwich of layers. For simple double sided boards from top to bottom these are the top silkscreen, top soldermask, top copper, the PCB material itself (usually FR4 fiberglass), bottom copper, and bottom soldermask. You might also have a bottom silkscreen for a more complicated board.

Go read up on PCB construction, then how the Eagle layers map to that will make sense.


euh, no. I am quite aware of how a PC board is made, be it single double-sided, or multi-layered. I know what the solder mask does and what delimitation it is supposed to have around the components. This is not my first succesfully-manufactured board I've designed...
Funny enough,I asked a co-worker if he would refer to the Stop layer (he doesn't use Eagle) as having "holes" in it, and he looked at me with question marks in his eyes..

He then suggested that maybe the person who said that meant "openings"... Then suddenly it all made sense.

You see, it isn't a question of my lack of knowledge, it is a question using the correct word to describe the Stop layer. when I read holes I thought to myself: round small openings. That's a hole. Not, "a perimetric delimitation around an area", which opening would have suggested.

I was hoping not to have to defend myself in such a manner but it seems as though people would rather assume that I lack knowledge.

anyway, another reader on another related topic has found a solution. I shall go try that out now.

anyways, thanks for your replies, I hope I don't come off as too defensive.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137125 is a reply to message #137109] Thu, 31 March 2011 20:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary Gofstein
Messages: 501
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
On 3/31/2011 7:55 AM, Owen wrote:
> Olin wrote on Thu, 31 March 2011 07:27
>> It seems now the real problem is not as much your understanding of
>> Eagle, but that you don't understand how PC boards work and how they are
>> made. If you did, it would be intuitive how some of the Eagle layers map
>> to layers of a PCB.
>>
>> Briefly, a PCB can the thought of as a sandwich of layers. For simple
>> double sided boards from top to bottom these are the top silkscreen, top
>> soldermask, top copper, the PCB material itself (usually FR4 fiberglass),
>> bottom copper, and bottom soldermask. You might also have a bottom
>> silkscreen for a more complicated board.
>>
>> Go read up on PCB construction, then how the Eagle layers map to that
>> will make sense.
>
>
> euh, no. I am quite aware of how a PC board is made, be it single
> double-sided, or multi-layered. I know what the solder mask does and what
> delimitation it is supposed to have around the components. This is not my
> first succesfully-manufactured board I've designed...
> Funny enough,I asked a co-worker if he would refer to the Stop layer (he
> doesn't use Eagle) as having "holes" in it, and he looked at me with
> question marks in his eyes..
>
> He then suggested that maybe the person who said that meant "openings"...
> Then suddenly it all made sense.
>
> You see, it isn't a question of my lack of knowledge, it is a question
> using the correct word to describe the Stop layer. when I read holes I
> thought to myself: round small openings. That's a hole. Not, "a perimetric
> delimitation around an area", which opening would have suggested.
>
> I was hoping not to have to defend myself in such a manner but it seems as
> though people would rather assume that I lack knowledge.
>
> anyway, another reader on another related topic has found a solution. I
> shall go try that out now.
>
> anyways, thanks for your replies, I hope I don't come off as too defensive.
The people who write the EAGLE software do not have american english as
a first language, some of the terms in EAGLE's english are not clear.
solder-stop is another name for solder-mask and the stop in tStop refers
to this.

There are a lot of cases where you have to be flexible in your
interpretation of EAGLE's terms. :-) For backward compatibility with
scripts and ULP's, the historic, perhaps misleading, terms are here to stay.
Re: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137128 is a reply to message #137055] Thu, 31 March 2011 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Pearce
Messages: 144
Registered: January 2008
Senior Member
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Owen wrote to us saying :
>Well Mr Pearce,
>as much as I thank you for your help, I must admit that I am not as
>knowledgeable using Eagle as you might have thought I was.
<snip>
>
>So, no need to insinuate something by saying that I need less syllables in
>order to understand

I apologise for being snarky. However, please do not try to suggest that
your inexperience with Eagle was under attack. I am actually very
tolerant of "newbies". What set me off was that I was repeating Olin's
earlier answer. I have less tolerance than I should of people who need
to be told things twice. Sorry.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137143 is a reply to message #137125] Fri, 01 April 2011 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Gary Gofstein wrote on Thu, 31 March 2011 16:19

There are a lot of cases where you have to be flexible in your
interpretation of EAGLE's terms. Smile For backward compatibility with scripts and ULP's, the historic, perhaps misleading, terms are here to stay.


When I first started learning Eagle the poor choice of command names caused considerable confusion. For example, CUT does a COPY, and COPY never seems to do what you want. WIRE draws lines except when they represent wires, then you use NET.

It is pretty universally understood that CUT does a copy and delete. This was well established before Eagle was written. It is totally beyond me what Klaus and company were thinking when they named the copy command "cut".

Another annoying "feature" that is due to Eagle's origin is that vertical text reads up not down. That is the german convention. However, I am using the english language version, and judging from the number of downloads and the activity in this forum, the english language version is much more popular. Is this *ever* going to get fixed? It's been reported as a problem long ago. At the very least there should be a setting for default vertical text direction. Currently this is a outright bug in the english language version, but Cadsoft doesn't seem to take is seriously because it looks right in the version they use.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137145 is a reply to message #137125] Fri, 01 April 2011 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
I did not think about that... the famous language barrier. However the level of english spoken on the forum, I find, is of higher quality than other forums I visit.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137146 is a reply to message #137143] Fri, 01 April 2011 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
ain't that true. I'm not surprised to see that other (non-german) members find this weird. But once you know it... lol
Re: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137147 is a reply to message #137128] Fri, 01 April 2011 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Redcutlass
Messages: 50
Registered: September 2009
Location: Canada
Member
Robert Pearce wrote on Thu, 31 March 2011 17:43
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011, Owen wrote to us saying :
>Well Mr Pearce,
>as much as I thank you for your help, I must admit that I am not as
>knowledgeable using Eagle as you might have thought I was.
<snip>
>
>So, no need to insinuate something by saying that I need less syllables in
>order to understand

I apologise for being snarky. However, please do not try to suggest that
your inexperience with Eagle was under attack. I am actually very
tolerant of "newbies". What set me off was that I was repeating Olin's
earlier answer. I have less tolerance than I should of people who need
to be told things twice. Sorry.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |

OK, I understand. Although not a newbie, I certainly am no expert, even though I use Eagle almost daily in my work. I guess each person's level of experience is ... subjective.
I will try to read answers more carefully in the future as it is true that I missed one word which made a difference. I am guilty of this, it's happened before.

cheers,

Redcutlass


ps: In any case I was able to properly design my footprints using the Restrict layer. Fabulous!
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137154 is a reply to message #137143] Fri, 01 April 2011 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1750
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Another annoying "feature" that is due to Eagle's origin is that
> vertical text reads up not down. That is the german convention.
> However, I am using the english language version, and judging from
> the number of downloads and the activity in this forum, the english
> language version is much more popular. Is this *ever* going to get
> fixed? It's been reported as a problem long ago. At the very least
> there should be a setting for default vertical text direction.
> Currently this is a outright bug in the english language version, but
> Cadsoft doesn't seem to take is seriously because it looks right in
> the version they use.

Off subject apologies.
I had not previously known of this 'text reads down' preferrence and agree
that if a significant portion of the market desires it then it should be
catered for.
I don't see the default as a German convention. 'text reads up' is my
preferrence as rotating the document clockwise (right) is my preference.
Are you saying the North American convention is to read a document from the
bottom or the left.


Cheers
Warren
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137177 is a reply to message #137154] Sun, 03 April 2011 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 01 April 2011 15:46

Are you saying the North American convention is to read a document from the bottom or the left.

I don't think of it as reading a document from a particular side. However, pretty universally when you see vertical text here it is written going down, not up. This applies to signs, the spines of books, and just about everything else. Vertical text going up looks stupid, at least here.

For example, if you look at a german bookcase the titles will read up, but here they will read down.

All this has been pointed out to Cadsoft before. They don't seem to care.

They really should enhance text placement in general. Eagle is workable but very primitive in that regard. Most software that lets you graphically place text allows you to chose the anchor from one of the 9 corners, center of edges, and center. After that should be choice of direction, with something better than the rather awkward "spin" flag to fix things.

I actually wrote a ULP that looks for vertical text strings. It sets the spin flag, orientation, and moves the origin around so that the text reads down instead of up in the same place. It mostly works, but it does move the text around a little bit.
COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137183 is a reply to message #137143] Mon, 04 April 2011 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 04/01/11 14:58, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> ...
> It is pretty universally understood that CUT does a copy and delete. This
> was well established before Eagle was written. It is totally beyond me
> what Klaus and company were thinking when they named the copy command
> "cut".

The user interface of EAGLE was inspired by the "Valid GED", a graphical
editor I was working with during my time at Siemens. In that editor the
COPY command worked in such a way that you select the command and then
click on the object you want to copy. Then you move the copy to the
desired target location and click again to place it.

The CUT command in the GED did only *copy* the selected group into
the "cutting" buffer for later use with PASTE. It did *not* delete
the group from the original drawing.

Well, I'm sorry I got into contact with the GED before I was "contaminated"
with Windows, but that's the reason why COPY and CUT behave as they do
in EAGLE.

To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
the following changes for version 6:

- The COPY command, when activated, just copies the group into
the buffer and terminates immediately. It will no longer be able to
select individual objects for copying. To copy individual objects
you will have to draw a group around each object, do a COPY and then
a PASTE. Unlike the former CUT command, which allowed the user to
define a reference point to "cut" the group at a particular location,
at which it will be attached to the mouse cursor when doing a later
PASTE, there will be no such reference point in the COPY command
(as usual under Windows, the group will be selected at its center).

- The CUT command becomes a combination of COPY, followed by a DELETE
of the group. Since board and schematic
are connected via forward&backannotation, some limitations apply
to the DELETE command (as is already the case now). Therefore it
may not be possible to actually delete the entire group. In such a case,
the group that has been copied into the buffer may contain objects
that have not been deleted from the drawing. Also, when doing a CUT
in the schematic, the group that gets copied into the buffer will
contain only the objects from the schematic, while the DELETE will
also delete the related objects from the board.
Alternatively (and since it most likely would cause quite some
confusion in boards and schematics) the CUT command could be
removed entirely.

- The PASTE command remains unchanged.

These changes should make EAGLE's COPY/CUT mechanism as "Windows like"
as possible. Whether this behavior is actually useful, is another
question...

Klaus Schmidinger
--
_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany URL: www.cadsoft.de
_______________________________________________________________
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137186 is a reply to message #137183] Mon, 04 April 2011 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tilmann Reh
Messages: 2068
Registered: October 2004
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger schrieb:

> To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
> the following changes for version 6:
>
> - The COPY command, when activated, just copies the group into
> the buffer and terminates immediately. It will no longer be able to
> select individual objects for copying.

That would be a great disadvantage. I often use COPY on single objects.
It wouldn't be any problem to keep that (with use of the LMB), IMHO -
even if the function for dealing with groups was changed as described above.

> To copy individual objects
> you will have to draw a group around each object, do a COPY and then
> a PASTE.

Horrible.

> Unlike the former CUT command, which allowed the user to
> define a reference point to "cut" the group at a particular location,
> at which it will be attached to the mouse cursor when doing a later
> PASTE, there will be no such reference point in the COPY command
> (as usual under Windows, the group will be selected at its center).

....so you'll run into many grid problems. Selecting the reference point
is a very essential feature of the (current) CUT command.

> These changes should make EAGLE's COPY/CUT mechanism as "Windows like"
> as possible. Whether this behavior is actually useful, is another
> question...

Exactly. I hereby request YAES (yet another eaglerc.usr switch) to
restore the current behaviour.

(Additionally, what about scripts that use the old command syntax?)

Tilmann

P.S. Yes, you have to learn the different command behaviour compared to
windows standard. Yes, you also need to get used to it. But after all,
EAGLE is a complex and powerful design tool - and in the current
implementation, you get the maximum /working efficiency/, and that's
what counts. The need to learn the tools is common for all complex ones.

Perhaps you just need to /rename/ the existing commands to avoid (or
reduce) the windows users confusion? (Script handling should still be
considered, however.)
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137188 is a reply to message #137183] Mon, 04 April 2011 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1432
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 04.04.2011 10:35, schrieb Klaus Schmidinger:
> On 04/01/11 14:58, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> ...
>> It is pretty universally understood that CUT does a copy and delete. This
>> was well established before Eagle was written. It is totally beyond me
>> what Klaus and company were thinking when they named the copy command
>> "cut".
>
> The user interface of EAGLE was inspired by the "Valid GED", a graphical
> editor I was working with during my time at Siemens. In that editor the
> COPY command worked in such a way that you select the command and then
> click on the object you want to copy. Then you move the copy to the
> desired target location and click again to place it.
>
> The CUT command in the GED did only *copy* the selected group into
> the "cutting" buffer for later use with PASTE. It did *not* delete
> the group from the original drawing.
>
> Well, I'm sorry I got into contact with the GED before I was "contaminated"
> with Windows, but that's the reason why COPY and CUT behave as they do
> in EAGLE.
>
> To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
> the following changes for version 6:
>
> - The COPY command, when activated, just copies the group into
> the buffer and terminates immediately. It will no longer be able to
> select individual objects for copying. To copy individual objects
> you will have to draw a group around each object, do a COPY and then
> a PASTE. Unlike the former CUT command, which allowed the user to
> define a reference point to "cut" the group at a particular location,
> at which it will be attached to the mouse cursor when doing a later
> PASTE, there will be no such reference point in the COPY command
> (as usual under Windows, the group will be selected at its center).
>
> - The CUT command becomes a combination of COPY, followed by a DELETE
> of the group. Since board and schematic
> are connected via forward&backannotation, some limitations apply
> to the DELETE command (as is already the case now). Therefore it
> may not be possible to actually delete the entire group. In such a case,
> the group that has been copied into the buffer may contain objects
> that have not been deleted from the drawing. Also, when doing a CUT
> in the schematic, the group that gets copied into the buffer will
> contain only the objects from the schematic, while the DELETE will
> also delete the related objects from the board.
> Alternatively (and since it most likely would cause quite some
> confusion in boards and schematics) the CUT command could be
> removed entirely.
>
> - The PASTE command remains unchanged.
>
> These changes should make EAGLE's COPY/CUT mechanism as "Windows like"
> as possible. Whether this behavior is actually useful, is another
> question...
>
> Klaus Schmidinger
Well, I think this is going to be a very bad idea. Apart from the fact
that some people think that they are the nabel of the world does not
mean that they are allways right.
You can bet that your suggested change will not close the subject "once
an for all".(Unfortunately)
Eagle is also not written for windows alone but also for linux etc.
But mostly window users go up the wall if something is not windows like.
(I shall not start a discussion about all the windows problems now, but
I am a windows user too).

So some people stumble over "cut" and they have not, and did not want,
learn that in over twenty years.

I bet that if the word "salary" wold be exchanged to "deptor" they would
accept that in 10 seconds ;-)

I use the "copy" very often in creating schematics und it would be worse
now allways first painting a group around a device just to copy it.

Why not just simply rename the "cut" into "groupcopy" or whatever you
like and leave the funktions as they are.
A far better idea is to have the complainers come up with a suitable name.



--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137195 is a reply to message #137183] Mon, 04 April 2011 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1347
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
"Klaus Schmidinger" <<private_email>> wrote in message
news:inbvt9$fuu$<private_email>...

The CUT [out] word is a real world reference to cutting something from a
sheet of paper, or an old newspaper editing desk. If you cut something
[out], it is either deleted or moved+pasted somewhere else. The problem with
this reference to Eagle is that brd and sch works "in parallel", so if you
cut in either the traditional way, you have not defined what is going to
happen to the other part of the project.

Maybe the function CUT should be renamed. (how about "CLONE" or
"DUPLICATE"?). To make both this and the copy functions more usable I would
also add more to it, like different options to what happens to the
copied/cloned netnames when you paste it. This could have been done after
copying as a separate function (edit paste buffer nets), or when pasting. It
is very intuitive to say how this is going to happen GUI wise, but in
command space it may be more difficult to visualize. Maybe the paste buffer
should get its own project.pastebuffer(index).sch and/or
project.pastebuffer(index).brd reference and work much like the main
structure, while commands could get a netname prefix to work in the
pastebuffer, so that a net named "net" would be referred to as
"$paste(1).net" after a copy or clone to buffer 1. (I've assumed there will
be multiple paste buffers here).
The Eagle window could even have a "edit pastebuffer" mode, where the stuff
in the pastebuffer can be opened and edited.
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137198 is a reply to message #137195] Mon, 04 April 2011 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1347
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
"Morten Leikvoll" <<private_email>pam> wrote in message
news:inch25$8ic$<private_email>...
>
> "Klaus Schmidinger" <<private_email>> wrote in message
> news:inbvt9$fuu$<private_email>...

Sorry for the left overs..

I could add that there should be a syncronized area clone/copy mode, where
you select a group window on both the sch and brd, and where clone/copy
checks if they contain the same parts and nets, and works on the selected
data in a wysiwyg way.
It should give error if nothing is common, or warning if one selection
contains other nets/parts than the other.
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137203 is a reply to message #137183] Mon, 04 April 2011 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 04:35

Well, I'm sorry I got into contact with the GED before I was "contaminated" with Windows,

It's not a Windows thing. The copy and cut convention was around well before that.

Quote:

To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest the following changes for version 6:

The current problem is one of naming, not of how the commands actually work. I think that changing anything now will cause too much pain to people that have managed to get used to how it works, and more importantly that have scripts and ULPs that rely on the existing names.

The fix is therefore documentation, not changing code. There should be a "Introduction to Eagle" section or something new users will find that explains the various unobvious things about Eagle. CUT doing just a COPY should be prominently mentioned, and what COPY really does and when you'd use that over CUT also needs to be made clear. That would have saved me a bunch of time back when I started. (actually I'm still a little hazy about when to use COPY versus CUT, although I haven't spent the time to deliberately try and educate myself either)
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137207 is a reply to message #137203] Mon, 04 April 2011 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Morrison
Messages: 1129
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member

Olin wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 10:00

The fix is therefore documentation, not changing code. There should be a "Introduction to Eagle" section or something new users will find that explains the various unobvious things about Eagle. CUT doing just a COPY should be prominently mentioned, and what COPY really does and when you'd use that over CUT also needs to be made clear. That would have saved me a bunch of time back when I started. (actually I'm still a little hazy about when to use COPY versus CUT, although I haven't spent the time to deliberately try and educate myself either)


I don't really agree with that conclusion Olin. Here is what I would suggest:

1) We keep some way of keeping the current methodology for all the old farts who can't rewire their brains and for the current library of scripts that rely on the copy and cut commands to do what they normally do.

2) Provide some method to use a new framework of cut, copy, paste that is more inline with _everything_ else in the world now.

So I would suggest an option on the SET command that flips back and forth between these two modes. For the GUI I would default to use the new modes (old timers can change their eagle.scr file to easily get back to the old way of doing things, newbies couldn't do the opposite easily).

I would further suggest that the script command behaves the opposite--it assumes the older mode and would take a command line option to force it to use the new functionality of cut, copy, paste. That way the old scripts will all work as expected and new ones can tell the command to use the new mode. The scripts could also just use the SET command to get the correct mode to start and restore it when complete.

Then I think we get the best of everything--backwards compatibility and a way for current users to get back to the way it was. But new users get the more modern functionality of these commands and have a better experience with EAGLE out of the box.

Cheers,

James.



James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital
http://www.stratforddigital.ca
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137219 is a reply to message #137203] Mon, 04 April 2011 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gary Gofstein
Messages: 501
Registered: May 2008
Senior Member
On 4/4/2011 7:00 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 04:35
>> Well, I'm sorry I got into contact with the GED before I was
>> "contaminated" with Windows,
>
> It's not a Windows thing. The copy and cut convention was around well
> before that.
>
> Quote:
>> To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
>> the following changes for version 6:
>
> The current problem is one of naming, not of how the commands actually
> work. I think that changing anything now will cause too much pain to
> people that have managed to get used to how it works, and more importantly
> that have scripts and ULPs that rely on the existing names.
>
> The fix is therefore documentation, not changing code. There should be a
> "Introduction to Eagle" section or something new users will find that
> explains the various unobvious things about Eagle. CUT doing just a COPY
> should be prominently mentioned, and what COPY really does and when you'd
> use that over CUT also needs to be made clear. That would have saved me a
> bunch of time back when I started. (actually I'm still a little hazy about
> when to use COPY versus CUT, although I haven't spent the time to
> deliberately try and educate myself either)
>
I think the problem is not the functionality of the commands, it's the
misleading use of language to describe what they do. I agree that if
copy is renamed to "duplicate", it is consistent with other software and
obvious what it does. And cut then becomes copy, which would be
misleading except that in all other software, copy has a consistent
meaning of "place into paste buffer".

These command names in English predate Windows by many, many years. I
remember using a DEC CRT terminal (smart terminal) on a mainframe that
had local editing capability with a cut/copy/paste buffer in the 1980's.

Although "invoke" can be traced to the latin roots for "call in" ( which
is exactly what it does), the word invoke, in american english, can not
be used in this way. Changing the name to "Call Gates" or, even better,
"More Gates" or "Add Gates" would be a good start for a workable name
for this command. You could just leave the old "invoke" as well and not
tell anybody about it.

None of these changes have anything to do with experienced users, they
just clarify things for new users. It seems rather unprofessional to
have variances from accepted UI practice, /especially when it could be
done without them/. So, some of EAGLE's odd use of mouse controls is
much more acceptable, because it's not clear how it could be done with
the established UI model. But misleading names = sloppy software in the
new user's eyes.
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137225 is a reply to message #137219] Mon, 04 April 2011 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joern Paschedag
Messages: 1432
Registered: August 2008
Senior Member
Am 04.04.2011 21:58, schrieb Gary Gofstein:
> On 4/4/2011 7:00 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 04 April 2011 04:35
>>> Well, I'm sorry I got into contact with the GED before I was
>>> "contaminated" with Windows,
>>
>> It's not a Windows thing. The copy and cut convention was around well
>> before that.
>>
>> Quote:
>>> To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
>>> the following changes for version 6:
>>
>> The current problem is one of naming, not of how the commands actually
>> work. I think that changing anything now will cause too much pain to
>> people that have managed to get used to how it works, and more
>> importantly
>> that have scripts and ULPs that rely on the existing names.
>>
>> The fix is therefore documentation, not changing code. There should be a
>> "Introduction to Eagle" section or something new users will find that
>> explains the various unobvious things about Eagle. CUT doing just a COPY
>> should be prominently mentioned, and what COPY really does and when you'd
>> use that over CUT also needs to be made clear. That would have saved me a
>> bunch of time back when I started. (actually I'm still a little hazy
>> about
>> when to use COPY versus CUT, although I haven't spent the time to
>> deliberately try and educate myself either)
>>
> I think the problem is not the functionality of the commands, it's the
> misleading use of language to describe what they do. I agree that if
> copy is renamed to "duplicate", it is consistent with other software and
> obvious what it does. And cut then becomes copy, which would be
> misleading except that in all other software, copy has a consistent
> meaning of "place into paste buffer".
>
> These command names in English predate Windows by many, many years. I
> remember using a DEC CRT terminal (smart terminal) on a mainframe that
> had local editing capability with a cut/copy/paste buffer in the 1980's.
>
> Although "invoke" can be traced to the latin roots for "call in" ( which
> is exactly what it does), the word invoke, in american english, can not
> be used in this way. Changing the name to "Call Gates" or, even better,
> "More Gates" or "Add Gates" would be a good start for a workable name
> for this command. You could just leave the old "invoke" as well and not
> tell anybody about it.
>
> None of these changes have anything to do with experienced users, they
> just clarify things for new users. It seems rather unprofessional to
> have variances from accepted UI practice, /especially when it could be
> done without them/. So, some of EAGLE's odd use of mouse controls is
> much more acceptable, because it's not clear how it could be done with
> the established UI model. But misleading names = sloppy software in the
> new user's eyes.
I think this should be discussed in a new thread since it has nothing to
do with thermal pads.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards

Joern Paschedag
Re: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #137256 is a reply to message #137177] Tue, 05 April 2011 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Pearce
Messages: 144
Registered: January 2008
Senior Member
On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Olin Lathrop wrote to us saying :
> However,
>pretty universally when you see vertical text here it is written going
>down, not up. This applies to signs, the spines of books, and just about
>everything else. Vertical text going up looks stupid, at least here.

Here in the UK that's not true. Sure, book spines are (usually) set to
read down, but that's actually for a book-specific reason: if you lay
the book down on a table with the front cover up, the text on the spine
is right-reading. Vertical text on a page usually runs upward, because
in the old days when it was a hand-written annotation a right-handed
person will always find it easier to write upward.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137266 is a reply to message #137183] Wed, 06 April 2011 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oliver Betz
Messages: 620
Registered: September 2005
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:

>> It is pretty universally understood that CUT does a copy and delete. This
>> was well established before Eagle was written. It is totally beyond me
>> what Klaus and company were thinking when they named the copy command
>> "cut".
>
>The user interface of EAGLE was inspired by the "Valid GED", a graphical
>editor I was working with during my time at Siemens. In that editor the

Thanks for the insight. I always wondered where the naming comes from.

[...]

>To get this recurring discussion over with once and for all I suggest
>the following changes for version 6:

Please don't change the behaviour of the commands this way. It would
be a severe drawback!

As others wrote, it's a naming problem - the main issue is that the
current CUT command does "copy" to the buffer, not "cut".

I'm not sure whether renaming of the commands is suitable (compromise
"compatibility" vs. "new user friendliness"), and since I use Eagle
for a long time, I'm not able to give an unbiased vote.

If you ever think about changing the function, I strongly suggest to
start threads in the relevant groups and get the opinions from a
broader audience.

We might consider the relationship between COPY and CUT, and the use
of the left mouse button with CUT in this case.

Oliver
Re: COPY/CUT behavior [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?] [message #137323 is a reply to message #137266] Thu, 07 April 2011 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Pearce
Messages: 144
Registered: January 2008
Senior Member
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Oliver Betz wrote to us saying :
>
>As others wrote, it's a naming problem - the main issue is that the
>current CUT command does "copy" to the buffer, not "cut".
>
The command currently referred to as "cut" is the problem, but if
renamed to "copy" then the existing command of that name causes trouble.
The best "fix" would be to alias the cut command to something clear and
unambiguous that doesn't clash with an existing command. But I can't
think of anything suitable. The existing "copy" command could be called
"clone" or something like that, since its functionality is akin to
duplicating individual components, but that in itself doesn't help
because it's the "cut" command that confuses people. I suppose "cut"
could be renamed to "clone" but that would, at least to me, still feel
to be the wrong way round.

Sorry, I'm not helping am I.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |
Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141249 is a reply to message #137143] Tue, 20 September 2011 09:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 04/01/11 14:58, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> ...
> Another annoying "feature" that is due to Eagle's origin is that vertical
> text reads up not down. That is the german convention. However, I am
> using the english language version, and judging from the number of
> downloads and the activity in this forum, the english language version is
> much more popular. Is this *ever* going to get fixed? It's been reported
> as a problem long ago. At the very least there should be a setting for
> default vertical text direction.

I'm currently looking into this and would appreciate your advice on the
exact details.

The "German" convention is to have texts be readable from bottom
or right, as shown in the attached image. So any text with an angle
of '90 < angle <= 270' is drawn "upside down".

I understand that the texts "ABC R90" and "ABC R270" would have to
be drawn upside down in the American convention, but what's with
the other texts? Can you give me an expression like the above one,
which takes the angle and calculates whether or not to modify
the orientation?

Or can you point me to a web page that explains the American convention
for text orientations?

Klaus Schmidinger
--
_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany URL: www.cadsoft.de
_______________________________________________________________
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141300 is a reply to message #141249] Wed, 21 September 2011 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 09/20/11 11:47, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
> On 04/01/11 14:58, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> ...
>> Another annoying "feature" that is due to Eagle's origin is that vertical
>> text reads up not down. That is the german convention. However, I am
>> using the english language version, and judging from the number of
>> downloads and the activity in this forum, the english language version is
>> much more popular. Is this *ever* going to get fixed? It's been reported
>> as a problem long ago. At the very least there should be a setting for
>> default vertical text direction.
>
> I'm currently looking into this and would appreciate your advice on the
> exact details.
>
> The "German" convention is to have texts be readable from bottom
> or right, as shown in the attached image. So any text with an angle
> of '90 < angle <= 270' is drawn "upside down".
>
> I understand that the texts "ABC R90" and "ABC R270" would have to
> be drawn upside down in the American convention, but what's with
> the other texts? Can you give me an expression like the above one,
> which takes the angle and calculates whether or not to modify
> the orientation?

Answering to myself: I guess the only two texts that need to
be modified are those with rotation R90 and R270. All others will
be left as is.

The attached images show how this will look. Note that the pad names
of vertical pins will be drawn on the opposite side of the pin wire,
so that when looking at a pin the text is always "above" the pin wire.

Klaus Schmidinger
--
_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany URL: www.cadsoft.de
_______________________________________________________________
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141302 is a reply to message #141300] Wed, 21 September 2011 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Wed, 21 September 2011 10:06

The attached images show how this will look. Note that the pad names of vertical pins will be drawn on the opposite side of the pin wire, so that when looking at a pin the text is always "above" the pin wire.

One way or another, vertically oriented text needs to read down, not up. If you look at a bookshelf here in the US, the titles on the bindings all read down, for example.

What to do about text that is not exactly vertical or horizontal is a gray area that I think doesn't have a single right answer. The example in your first picture is probably as good as any. Your second picture is right on.

Perhaps this whole thing is a problem only because of two unfortunate design choices: Eagle wants to "fix" something it maybe shouldn't be messing with at all, and it doesn't have general text anchoring capability.

Most systems that have to deal with graphical text allow at least the choice of the 9 common anchor positions. The text string extent is considered a rectangle which can be anchored at any of the 4 corners, the centers of the 4 edges, or the middle. With a system like that there is little need to automatically flip text orientation - in fact it's better to leave it alone and let the user do what he wants.

To use a Eagle example, suppose I'm making the symbol for a horizontal resistor. I want to have the part designator above the symbol and the value below, but each centered horizontally. There is no way to do that in Eagle now. You have to guess how wide each string is going to be and move it around so that it will be centered for the nominal width. Short strings will end up a little to the left and long strings to the right. What I really want to do is anchor the top string to its lower middle point and the bottom string to its top middle point. Fortunately for a resistor there is usually enough room and a little misalignment can be ignored. However, that was just to illustrate the point.

If Eagle doesn't automatically try to "fix" text orientation, this issue wouldn't be a problem. I guess that's like saying the spin flag should always be on. After laying out and routing a board, you always expect to clean up the silkscreen and move text around to where it will be visible and meaningful. The text starts out a mess, but that's expected. Having that also be upside down makes it no worse. As you're moving the strings around with the mouse, a simple right click rotates it another 90 degrees left. If it reads up and I want it reading down, two quick mouse clicks fix that. The extra mouse clicks are irrelevant since it's a lot less than moving the text to a decent spot to begin with. The problem is when Eagle decides to fix it and never allow the preferred vertical orientation without having to turn on the spin flag. That is a bid deal since it's outside the simple workflow of moving the text around with the mouse.

So I think a better answer is to get rid of the spin flag altogether, give us at least the 9 basic text anchor points, and never have Eagle think it knows anything about what direction text should be other than how the user set it.

Of course I'd have to actually try that to know for sure Smile
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141305 is a reply to message #141300] Wed, 21 September 2011 18:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1347
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
Would it make sense to keep your circle of labels independant on view
rotation? If so, both are wrong, and you would need a flag to set
direction.
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141313 is a reply to message #141302] Wed, 21 September 2011 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 21.09.2011 18:53, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> ...
> give us at least the 9 basic text anchor points

This will be possible in version 6.

Klaus Schmidinger
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_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
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Re: Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141372 is a reply to message #141302] Fri, 23 September 2011 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert Pearce
Messages: 144
Registered: January 2008
Senior Member
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Olin Lathrop wrote to us saying :
>
>One way or another, vertically oriented text needs to read down, not up.
>If you look at a bookshelf here in the US, the titles on the bindings all
>read down, for example.

A bookshelf is a very poor model to use as referent. Book spines have
the text that way round purely to be right-reading when placed on a
table face-up. For annotations in margins (which is MUCH closer to the
model we're looking for) the natural thing for a right-handed person is
to write upwards, not down.
--
Rob Pearce http://www.bdt-home.demon.co.uk

The contents of | All power corrupts, but we need electricity.
this message are |
purely my opinion. |
Don't believe a |
word. |
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141374 is a reply to message #141302] Fri, 23 September 2011 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1750
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
Olin Lathrop wrote:

>
> One way or another, vertically oriented text needs to read down, not
> up. If you look at a bookshelf here in the US, the titles on the
> bindings all read down, for example.
>
>

I have watched with interest Olin's request for down reading verticle text.
Living in New Zealand, a country with British roots, it maybe understandable
that up reading text is normal. Due to our geograhic location and import /
export habits we are equally exposed to the standards of the US and so
become 'aware' of the many differences. That said, I have never come across
down reading text on a document or plan.

So I searched some US companies for product pdfs to see if I could observe
this down reading text and found none that qualify as Olin describes for a
page that is to be read without rotating it.

I've read a lot of datasheets and all graphs have the Y-axis reading up.

The only time there was down reading text, as the page was arrived at, was
a page that had been rotated landscape to portrate clockwise. This is not
normal if the documant is never expected to be bound into a book but happens
when this page would be the left page of an open book

Can soemone, a US resident I suspect, post some document links that show
down reading text is a common convention somewhere.

Thanks
Warren




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Re: Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141378 is a reply to message #141372] Fri, 23 September 2011 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Robert Pearce wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 12:55

A bookshelf is a very poor model to use as referent.

It was merely a example. How is the text on the spine of german books oriented? The only german book I could find right here where I am now has a wide enough spine that the text is horizontal, so no help.

In any case, the point is that Eagle shouldn't be assuming a particular convention and let the user more easily rotate text as he likes.
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141392 is a reply to message #141378] Sat, 24 September 2011 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 24.09.2011 00:51, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Robert Pearce wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 12:55
>> A bookshelf is a very poor model to use as referent.
>
> It was merely a example. How is the text on the spine of german books
> oriented?

German books usually have the text reading upwards.

> In any case, the point is that Eagle shouldn't be assuming a particular
> convention and let the user more easily rotate text as he likes.

Imagine a symbol with two pins, one extending to the right
and one to the left (i.e. rotated by 180 degrees). Would you
really want the pin and pad names of the left pin be written
upside down?

Klaus Schmidinger
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_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
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Re: Text orientation [message #141394 is a reply to message #141374] Sat, 24 September 2011 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 23.09.2011 23:13, Warren Brayshaw wrote:
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>>
>> One way or another, vertically oriented text needs to read down, not
>> up. If you look at a bookshelf here in the US, the titles on the
>> bindings all read down, for example.
>>
>>
>
> I have watched with interest Olin's request for down reading verticle text.
> Living in New Zealand, a country with British roots, it maybe understandable
> that up reading text is normal. Due to our geograhic location and import /
> export habits we are equally exposed to the standards of the US and so
> become 'aware' of the many differences. That said, I have never come across
> down reading text on a document or plan.
>
> So I searched some US companies for product pdfs to see if I could observe
> this down reading text and found none that qualify as Olin describes for a
> page that is to be read without rotating it.
>
> I've read a lot of datasheets and all graphs have the Y-axis reading up.
>
> The only time there was down reading text, as the page was arrived at, was
> a page that had been rotated landscape to portrate clockwise. This is not
> normal if the documant is never expected to be bound into a book but happens
> when this page would be the left page of an open book
>
> Can soemone, a US resident I suspect, post some document links that show
> down reading text is a common convention somewhere.

That's a good point, Warren.
So before we continue this thread, I'd like Olin to come
forward with a concrete example of a diagram, data sheet
or whatever (preferably, of course, a schematic diagram)
that has vertical text reading downwards (or "from the left
side"). Maybe I was a little too hasty spending all the
time and effort in implementing this feature, while in
real life nobody actually uses it...

Klaus Schmidinger
--
_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany URL: www.cadsoft.de
_______________________________________________________________
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141400 is a reply to message #141392] Sat, 24 September 2011 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Sat, 24 September 2011 04:59

German books usually have the text reading upwards.

That's what I thought but wasn't sure. Here in the US the spine of books when in a bookcase read down. This means there definitely are different regional conventions.

Again, the books are only one indication of the general preference. The Y axis label is a special case because the Y axis "flows" upwards and the text is just going along with that. Other than in such cases, upwards vertical text just looks strange or wrong.

Quote:

Imagine a symbol with two pins, one extending to the right
and one to the left (i.e. rotated by 180 degrees). Would you
really want the pin and pad names of the left pin be written
upside down?

No I wouldn't, but this particular case is a lot easier because there are only 4 possible pin orientations so it's easy to say up front what the text orientation for each case should be. In the two vertical cases I want the text reading down, not up as now. This should probably be based on a global vertical text orientation switch.

What I was thinking about more was arbitrary graphical text created with the TEXT command, like in the silkscreen layer coming from package definitions. Those end up in arbitrary locations and orientations anyway, so I don't care how Eagle originally writes them as long as it's easy for me to move around and reorient. Note that easy doesn't include having to set the spin flag.
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141412 is a reply to message #141392] Sat, 24 September 2011 21:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1750
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
> On 24.09.2011 00:51, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> Robert Pearce wrote on Fri, 23 September 2011 12:55
>>> A bookshelf is a very poor model to use as referent.
>>
>> It was merely a example. How is the text on the spine of german
>> books oriented?
>
> German books usually have the text reading upwards.
>

Book titling is irrelevant but the following from Wikipedia completes our
education.

QUOTE
Spine titling.......

.......Early books did not have titles on their spines; rather they were
shelved flat with their spines inward, and titles written with ink along
their fore edges. Modern books display their titles on their spines.

In languages with Chinese-influenced writing systems, the title is written
top-to-bottom, as is the language in general. In languages written
horizontally, conventions differ about the direction in which the title on
the spine is rotated:

* In the United States, the Commonwealth and in Scandinavia, titles are
usually written top-to-bottom on the spine. This means that when the book is
placed on a table with the front cover upwards, the title is correctly
oriented left-to-right on the spine. This practice is reflected in the
industry standards ANSI/NISO Z39.41[22] and ISO 6357.[23]
* In most of continental Europe, titles are conventionally printed
bottom-to-top on the spine so, when the books are placed vertically on
shelves, the title can be read by tilting the head to the left.[24]
END QUOTE

Latin America publications are not mentioned but a quick search reveals
they mainly follow Europe.

Warren



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Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141449 is a reply to message #141374] Mon, 26 September 2011 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Weidner
Messages: 564
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
Am 23.09.2011 23:13, schrieb Warren Brayshaw:
> Can soemone, a US resident I suspect, post some document links that show
> down reading text is a common convention somewhere.

In my office and our institute's library, we have several hundreds of
English books, mainly from American publishers. Of this awful number of
books, not more than about a handful have their titles printed upwards.
Therefore, downward printing seems to be QUITE common in the US.

Even quite OLD German books have their title pointing downwards, and
only the 'younger' ones (from the 70s and later) seem to have adopted
upwards printing. I myself prefer upwards, of course, because I only
learned reading in the 70s (yes, of the LAST century, and NOT the one
before that)...

Andreas Weidner
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141456 is a reply to message #141449] Mon, 26 September 2011 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1750
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
Andreas Weidner wrote:
> Am 23.09.2011 23:13, schrieb Warren Brayshaw:
>> Can soemone, a US resident I suspect, post some document links that
>> show down reading text is a common convention somewhere.
>
> In my office and our institute's library, we have several hundreds of
> English books, mainly from American publishers. Of this awful number
> of books, not more than about a handful have their titles printed
> upwards. Therefore, downward printing seems to be QUITE common in the
> US.
>
> Even quite OLD German books have their title pointing downwards, and
> only the 'younger' ones (from the 70s and later) seem to have adopted
> upwards printing. I myself prefer upwards, of course, because I only
> learned reading in the 70s (yes, of the LAST century, and NOT the one
> before that)...
>
> Andreas Weidner

The request is for documentation and CAD drawings practices and not the
spines of books, which has derailed the discussion. Interesting though.

Warren
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Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141459 is a reply to message #141456] Mon, 26 September 2011 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
warrenbrayshaw wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 16:48

The request is for documentation and CAD drawings practices and not the spines of books,

As I said before, down-reading vertical text is a strong convention here. The book spines are merely a way to illustrate this and point out that there really is a difference.

You're not going to find a standard document, but the fact that's how it's done here should be good enough. I don't know what fraction of Eagle users are in the US, but that's got to be a significant number.
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141461 is a reply to message #141459] Mon, 26 September 2011 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
warrenbrayshaw
Messages: 1750
Registered: January 2010
Location: New Zealand
Senior Member
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> warrenbrayshaw wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 16:48
>> The request is for documentation and CAD drawings practices and not
>> the spines of books,
>
> As I said before, down-reading vertical text is a strong convention
> here. The book spines are merely a way to illustrate this and point
> out that there really is a difference.
>
> You're not going to find a standard document, but the fact that's how
> it's done here should be good enough. I don't know what fraction of
> Eagle users are in the US, but that's got to be a significant number.
>
> --
I too would have guessed there were a large number US resident Eagle users
but alas not one has responded to confirm your assertions.

I was only curious. I went looking for an example and found none. I was not
asking for a standard document, just a link to a document or attachment that
provides anecdotal evidence that the convention exists beyond individuals
choosing to use that practice. You are requesting the feature and have not
in the interrum provided examples.

To me it seems that Cadsoft would be justified in not catering for it as the
business case has not been made.

Warren

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Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141467 is a reply to message #141461] Mon, 26 September 2011 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olin
Messages: 903
Registered: December 2009
Location: Massachusetts
Senior Member
warrenbrayshaw wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 18:20

I too would have guessed there were a large number US resident Eagle users
but alas not one has responded to confirm your assertions.

I don't think many people watch these forums, particularly in the US where they are not well known. Haven't you noticed that particularly the NNTP users are disproportionately European? Also note that nobody from the US has disagreed with me either. Most people don't want to use NNTP, Element14 is widely disliked, and few people know about Eagle Central.

I can tell you that I've mentioned this to others and have pointed people to my TEXTFLIP ULP that tries to fix vertical text after the fact.
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141470 is a reply to message #141467] Tue, 27 September 2011 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klaus Schmidinger
Messages: 1460
Registered: November 2008
Senior Member
On 09/27/11 01:42, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> warrenbrayshaw wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 18:20
>> I too would have guessed there were a large number US resident Eagle
>> users
>> but alas not one has responded to confirm your assertions.
>
> I don't think many people watch these forums, particularly in the US where
> they are not well known. Haven't you noticed that particularly the NNTP
> users are disproportionately European? Also note that nobody from the US
> has disagreed with me either. Most people don't want to use NNTP,
> Element14 is widely disliked, and few people know about Eagle Central.
>
> I can tell you that I've mentioned this to others and have pointed people
> to my TEXTFLIP ULP that tries to fix vertical text after the fact.

And I am still waiting for you to provide a
concrete example of a diagram, data sheet
or whatever (preferably, of course, a schematic diagram)
that has vertical text reading downwards (or "from the left
side"). Since this is, according to you, what everybody
does in the US, it shouldn't be hard to come up with something.

Klaus Schmidinger
--
_______________________________________________________________

Klaus Schmidinger Phone: +49-8635-6989-10
CadSoft Computer GmbH Fax: +49-8635-6989-40
Pleidolfweg 15 Email: <private_email>
D-84568 Pleiskirchen, Germany URL: www.cadsoft.de
_______________________________________________________________
Re: Text orientation [was: Re: How to create library part with thermal pad?[ [message #141484 is a reply to message #141470] Tue, 27 September 2011 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2009
Senior Member
On 9/27/2011 12:16 AM, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
> On 09/27/11 01:42, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> warrenbrayshaw wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 18:20
>>> I too would have guessed there were a large number US resident Eagle
>>> users
>>> but alas not one has responded to confirm your assertions.
>>
>> I don't think many people watch these forums, particularly in the US
>> where
>> they are not well known. Haven't you noticed that particularly the NNTP
>> users are disproportionately European? Also note that nobody from the US
>> has disagreed with me either. Most people don't want to use NNTP,
>> Element14 is widely disliked, and few people know about Eagle Central.
>>
>> I can tell you that I've mentioned this to others and have pointed people
>> to my TEXTFLIP ULP that tries to fix vertical text after the fact.
>
> And I am still waiting for you to provide a
> concrete example of a diagram, data sheet
> or whatever (preferably, of course, a schematic diagram)
> that has vertical text reading downwards (or "from the left
> side"). Since this is, according to you, what everybody
> does in the US, it shouldn't be hard to come up with something.
>
> Klaus Schmidinger

I (in the US) Like NNTP. Clear Concise, no frills and searchable.
Re: How to create library part with thermal pad? [message #168296 is a reply to message #136134] Sat, 14 January 2017 01:16 Go to previous message
justin hotban
Messages: 1
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I think you should use SinoGuide TCP110U thermal pad for test, one side with fiberglass reinforcement;  *TCP110U* has a 1.1 W/mK thermal conductivity for exceptionally low thermal resistance. Naturally tacky on one side for easy assembly,  A special resin material that is easy to pull from the liner and place in the application enhances handling.
h2.

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