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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169523 is a reply to message #169518] Mon, 20 February 2017 23:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
> Matt Berggren wrote:
>
> @Klaus, et. Al --
>
> You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall).
>
>
Hi Matt,

Congratulations! Now.... we make a small step forward.

At that time, pre Altium, with PCAD 4.5 (1985); 5.0 (1986,..,87); .... 8..8.5 ( first program for Windows; 1988...2000; after that i used PCAD 2001, 2002) that was  the theater that the files in binary wasn't compatible to each versions. (now you can sense how old i am... ;) )
Only with the interface export/import in ASCII format (every time we jumped across in the shell) was able to convert to the newer software version.

But, that was the point, all wires was fixed as wire, absolut stabil.
They didn't merged with lines (drawing lines). This was it what i loved against some other tools, e.g. from cadence.
The second software that have a stabil wire connection is Eagle and this have its famous price: cheap and easy to use.

But now the quality was lost.
The quality can be bring back if the price categories also the license policy be actualized to the today's standards.

What i suggest is:
1) Free version 160cm² (Eurocard) with two layers.
2) Standard version DIN A4 format, because most printer (e.g. laser printer) can print out the layouts in this format, with all layers (16).
3) Premium format as we have, 16m² 16 layers, or if you like, 32 layers or such as Altium Designer.
4) The license quality does NOT falling back to the free version, it must staying at the last state of its paid category.

Then in the future, what you want to do with your promise.
With this I'm sure, absolutely, you can hold all your customers.

->
Ähm,,,, "wire" "lines" -- in an forum I've read the wires will be lines, also in ULP.
hm.... i think that would be not so good.
This problem was often - the user drawn lines but he wanted wires.
And if the colors are the same then they have problems with interpreting, what is connected wire or what is a graphical line.
Most users are eyes orientated, so they drawing what they can see, not what they can program.
I suggest, keep it by strict separating.

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169530 is a reply to message #169523] Tue, 21 February 2017 18:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
HI,
As in any new project, the first big step is to revamp the engine.  And that is what Autodesk is diligently working on, setting up the foundation for the aggressive road-map they have traced for EAGLE.  In this latest version, they have added more features compared to the latest 2 major releases, please remember that the acquisition was like 6 months ago.  Its obvious that many don't agree with subscription, but with the same breath the community and users ask or almost demand new features.  Without raising up-front the price, how else will this be done? Making EAGLE affordable is paramount, but continued implementation to the software is just as important as the engineering of PCB design is continuously evolving.  Earlier attempts of adding an aggressive licensing failed, I am really glad it did because users wouldn't be getting nothing in return for this non sense. With this new model, you will get continued significant updates.
Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems. 
I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another, that is a personal decision, I just think Autodesk has done a lot in a very short time, and ask the community for some patience, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Best Regards,
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169531 is a reply to message #169530] Tue, 21 February 2017 19:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Ed Robledo wrote:
> .Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ed

My experience is that this might work for a release or two, but as time goes on, the export will be less reliable.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169532 is a reply to message #168341] Tue, 21 February 2017 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1, are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed
i.e. testing has become less important.
Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer want.

I want to buy a license for V7 but autodesk don't let me because they know that people who already have
a license for V7, will not "upgrade" to V8 and their subscription. So much for their confidence in their
new product...



Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169535 is a reply to message #168344] Tue, 21 February 2017 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Hi Matt,

Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage, I .e. pay up or your knowledge is now worthless. To me, this represents a breach of trust between Autodesk and the EagleCAD user community and indicates a company that is more concerned with itself than with its customers. I went through this once before when OrCAD was purchased by Cadence and so I am perhaps hyper-sensitized. I used EagleCAD precisely because it was not a product of a big faceless CAD vendor that could care less about my tiny contribution to their bottom line. My inclination now is to cut my losses and go with an open source package like KiCAD so that I never have to go through this again. Whatever I do, rest assured that unless Autodesk changes course and offers an affordable perpetual license option my days of using EagleCAD are numbered.

Sincerely,
Brent Bolton

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169536 is a reply to message #169433] Tue, 21 February 2017 20:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 15
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:37:44 GMT, rbtx99
<noreply-375754@element14.com> wrote:

> Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

WOOT!!!!
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169537 is a reply to message #169530] Tue, 21 February 2017 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Ed,

please, once more, as i said:

NOT THE PRICE IS THE PROBLEM.

The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.
Customers are really punished with this action.

In no other (nearly / - small companies that grabbing money) company I know such this action.

This is as if you have a car fully equipped, then suddenly all 4 wheels AND the steering wheel takes away, steals away.
In this way, the paid full license is stolen away.

That's the clearly argument in this business with AutoDesk.
All other is lobbyism. One person talks about this, another about that, but not all together in confirmation.
So because of that yesterday i suggested the 4 points.

! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .

-> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,
after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,
and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".
I know 100%, since many years that AutoDesk makes highest quality software; please also with Eagle too.

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169538 is a reply to message #169532] Tue, 21 February 2017 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> Joop14 wrote:
>
> The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1,
> are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape
> routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed
> i.e. testing has become less important.
> Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer
> want.
>
It is no uncommon for a brand new major release to have a some incidents or issues.  The difference is how fast does the developing team make the changes to solve it.  Autodesk did prove this when releasing an update to 8.0.1 which solved the majority of issues in less than 2 weeks. The latest implementation were based on improvements being requested by the users, there is no foundation indicating Autodesk doesn't care about the customer. The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.  Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place.
Best Regards,
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169539 is a reply to message #169538] Tue, 21 February 2017 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Il 21/02/2017 22:20, techsupport ha scritto:

The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.
Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they
were not done in the first place.

Good! Said that, please, fix the license!

Best regards

Alberto

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169540 is a reply to message #169537] Tue, 21 February 2017 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi Gerald,

Not wishing to be mistaken for an Autodesk employee again as I am not, but I will comment again anyway.
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period.
> Customers are really punished with this action.
Why is this a problem? If you need to use it you renew your subscription. If you don't need to use it then you don't pay until you do.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .
With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.

Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely! :D

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days.....,
> after then i switch on the software for an active or new project...,
> and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...".
>
When you switch on your software it contacts the Autodesk servers and your software starts up and works again. They don't take it away and confiscate your subscription if your computer doesn't contact them :p The only issue is if you don't have internet access. This could be solved by Autodesk making the call home period equal to the license period, so if you had a three year subscription it would continue to work for three years before dialling home. It would still have to dial home for activating any updates but making the call home match the license period would remove a lot of concerns of people in remote or internet starved places.

Sorry if you think I am sticking up for Autodesk too much, I can understand peoples grievances with the licensing change, especially as Farnell tried to do this too (but in my opinion much worse and they implemented the dreaded flexlm licensing!), but quite frankly some peoples demands are going far beyond reasonable in the other direction. I think with a few more relatively benign tweaks to the licensing that I have mentioned in several threads over the last couple of days the majority of the issues could be resolved. I'm sure Autodesk are reading these suggestions, we'll just have to see if they come up with any additional concessions.

At the end of the day v7 is still a good product and I have that license so if v8 doesn't pan out for whatever reason I will fall back to that until I need capabilities beyond what it can give. I don't see the need for throwing tantrums on forums and ditching all of my existing setup because of a licensing change that won't cost me any more money. The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169542 is a reply to message #169539] Tue, 21 February 2017 21:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.
> Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they
> were not done in the first place.
>
> Good! Said that, please, fix the license!
The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there.  The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing. 
Best Regards,
Ed

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169544 is a reply to message #169540] Tue, 21 February 2017 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31
The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter. I think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is any reason that we should consider a subscription. During that time, Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to have. We'll see.

I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade. I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit in with the rest of their product line. On one hand, I hope that EAGLE grows into the full-fledged product that it might be. On the other, I am now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever.

Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been. Yes, the subscription pricing is probably reasonable. But for me, and I think for others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty cool club. Autodesk is too big to ever be that. (Not their fault.) That old club has been disbanded. EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation. Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more and the transition will be complete.

Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks, scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other products. Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now.

This too shall pass...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169545 is a reply to message #169542] Tue, 21 February 2017 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Ed Robledo wrote:
>
> The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing.
> Best Regards,
> Ed

I would be interesting to see if you can create a *genuinely useful enhancement* for Eagle, that will get as much reaction around the world as the licensing change has. I first heard about it on the time-nuts mailing list

* Time-nuts
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=time-nuts@febo.com&q=subject:%22R e\%3A+\[time\-nuts\]+OT\%3A+Eagle+PC+CAD+now+Auto… ( https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=time-nuts@febo.com&q=subject:%22R e\%3A+\ [time\-nuts\]+OT\%3A+Eagle+PC+CAD+now+Autodesk%2C+%24500\%2Fyear%22&o=n ewest)

* Hackaday
Autodesk Moves EAGLE to Subscription Only Pricing | Hackaday ( http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pr icing/)

* Kicad
https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964

* Altium
Switch from Eagle PCB (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)

Would incorporating a full 3D EM solver, create as much interest on so many forums? I suspect not.

There does not appear to be any fall in the Autodesk share price - in fact, it is almost as high as it has ever been. So I guess shareholders are not objecting.

Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169546 is a reply to message #169535] Tue, 21 February 2017 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage,

Exactly. If EAGLE 8 was totally free but needed to connect every two weeks to activate I would still not use it. If Autodesk paid me $500 a year... I would still not use it. If they ever realise that they may have a successful business.

As for the effort on developing expertise... it is not a big deal as one may think. I was hesitant changing to another brand of microcomputers and it was a few months of pain to get back to speed but now it is all past me and I look back and I blame myself for not doing it sooner. Jumping ship from EAGLE for me is now certainty. The only question is what to jump to that is best for my needs.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169555 is a reply to message #169544] Wed, 22 February 2017 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Doug Wellington wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 22:37
rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31
The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter. I think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is any reason that we should consider a subscription. During that time, Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to have. We'll see.

I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade. I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit in with the rest of their product line. On one hand, I hope that EAGLE grows into the full-fledged product that it might be. On the other, I am now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever.

Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been. Yes, the subscription pricing is probably reasonable. But for me, and I think for others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty cool club. Autodesk is too big to ever be that. (Not their fault.) That old club has been disbanded. EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation. Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more and the transition will be complete.

Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks, scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other products. Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now.

This too shall pass...


Hi Doug,

Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though.

Best Regards,

Rachael


Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169563 is a reply to message #169542] Wed, 22 February 2017 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto:
>> The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE.
>> Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they
>> were not done in the first place.
>>
>> Good! Said that, please, fix the license!
> The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing.
> Best Regards,
> Ed

Mmmhhhh....

Is seems that 90% of posts in this formum are related to the licence
model instead other topics, this means that:

1) The license *is* a concern;
2) Users (me too) are asking you to review the license model.

I just said I am a long term user (schematic+layout+autorouter pro), I
just said that I had planned to upgrade to V8, I just said that I
dropped it due the new license model.
In my decision schema your license model enters as a FALSE in a final
logic AND, so the definitive decision is always FALSE: not upgrade! This
despite the features you plan to add and also the price.
Again, I can accept a yearly maintenance model, I can not accept a
subscription model. Maybe the only valid reason that Autodesk understand
is the revenue instead users requests like this...
I am not in a hurry, so I can wait and evaluating alternatives for the
next months, maybe an year, then, if nothing changes, I have to say
goodbye and good luck.
I am angry, very angry, because I invested time and efforts (libraries,
ULPs and so on) and I will have to rebuild all in another tool. Eagle is
not a new product build from scratch, there is a users, like me, base
who have choosen it for the feature but also for the license: to buy an
existing company/product and to change policies at this level is like to
be an elephant and to enter in a glassware... It is legal, but it is
also absolutely unfair.
So, in my perspective, license is broken and makes the product unusable.

Best regards

Alberto
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169566 is a reply to message #169555] Wed, 22 February 2017 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Rachael,

sorry, but hoping (also hopping and dancing) and praying we can do it in the church.
In business we have concrete facts.

The fact is that, if Autodesk has a disaster in its territory, for example earthquake or internal political problems in the company,
millions of users can also close their company or minimum their software.
Then we all have the huge problem of fixing the billions of damage, with all sorts of court actions.
If we both have a local problem, others are not affected.
If other clients have their problems then we are both not affected by these local problems.

This is the next big problem with such a kind of licensing policy.
These are facts, not belief or hope.
The license is broken!

If the employee is terminated by the support, or is no longer available to us, what is the matter with a licensing policy for us?

What do employees have with licenses? Are the licenses nailed on their trousers or shirts?
These people are not Autodesk, though?
How many servers does Autodesk have on the planet?

We have been waiting four years for a serious and well-functioning software update.
I have not V7 pro, but only V6.xx. Per, because the V7 is a scrap.
So I wanted to skip V7 and I've always told Cadsoft, synonymous I have written this in the German and English forums.
Now with Autodesk, the promised number 8 is here, but with the same weak uptrend.
And come all the time with hopes and prayers .. I can do that in the church, not in the business market.

You must be able to continue working if Autodesk does not update the software.
Otherwise hell is going on, and all this on the whole planet.

Just because Autodesk has a subscription philosophy ... well, this is a "hard tobacco" ...
Should productivity remain stuck on a global scale?

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169567 is a reply to message #169545] Wed, 22 February 2017 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
David Kirkby wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 15:49
* Altium
Switch from Eagle PCB (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/)

I just found out that Circuit Studio maintenance costs $150 a year. With the current promotion, that makes it $5 cheaper than EAGLE Premium the first year, but then $350 cheaper than EAGLE every year after that. Even without the promotional pricing, the break-even point is just over two years. 32 layers, unlimited board size, perpetual license, cheaper than EAGLE. What's not to like?

Quote:
There does not appear to be any fall in the Autodesk share price - in fact, it is almost as high as it has ever been. So I guess shareholders are not objecting.

Shareholders usually know nothing of the customer; many only look at the reports generated by a company itself...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169568 is a reply to message #169540] Wed, 22 February 2017 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Rachael,

i don't see problems with that.
> rachaelp wrote:
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
> ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers .
> With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model.
>
> Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely!

If he don't like more updates, well .... You can not press the customers with a "knife".
But this license policy makes this.

Well, the DIN A4 is more flexible to use.
E. g.: Mostly I work on Eurocards 160x100 mm (3U) or double Eurocards 160x233,3mm (6U).
Then a full backplane I can not create because it is bigger than A4. Yes, I will pay for a premium version.
I will pay it as long as the project lasts, or even longer.
But not if I never use it.
Practically always I only work with up to double Euro cards. So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
Creating a backplane is a rare project.

Autodesk says "flexible" --- is this flexible what we just got? absolut no.

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169569 is a reply to message #169568] Wed, 22 February 2017 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
> So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169572 is a reply to message #169567] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi,

Yes i calculated this too last month.
Best Regards,
Gerald
---
> I just found out that Circuit Studio maintenance costs $150 a year.  With
> the current promotion, that makes it $5 cheaper than EAGLE Premium the
> first year, but then $350 cheaper than EAGLE every year after that.  Even
> without the promotional pricing, the break-even point is just over two
> years.  32 layers, unlimited board size, perpetual license, cheaper than
> EAGLE.  What's not to like?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169573 is a reply to message #169569] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Jan Cumps wrote:
>
>> So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
> Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?
Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard. If you are between projects and don't need to update boards for a few months because you are busy doing other things then you cancel your subscription, but you can still view, print, export your designs from the Freeware license. If you need to make an edit you pay up again.... If you take somebody on for a short term, say a few months so need an extra license just for that period, that's easy and you cancel it after they're done so you don't end up with another license you don't need. It all seems very flexible to me....

Having said that, I do think they should add a level between Standard and Premium. Maybe the DIN A4 size Gerald is referring to would be a good size to go for, although maybe not 16 layers. Actually, honestly how many times does 16 layers actually get used? I've done some seriously complex boards and not gone past 10 layers. The only board I have seen with more layers was a 20-layer backplane board in an Aerospace application....

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169574 is a reply to message #169569] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi,

Please do not tear from the context.

Gerald
---


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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169575 is a reply to message #169555] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1340
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 22.02.2017 08:45, Rachael wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change
> has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these
> forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users
> anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn
> out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long
> time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their
> experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated....
> I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!)
> will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect
> any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather
> than here though.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rachael

Since I'm probably one of the long time users, and at least periodically
visiting nearly every day, here is my status:
(I find it very difficult to sort all my thoughts about this issue, so
excuse me if it's a bit messy or repeating.)

I am still reading the [nntp] forums almost every day. The autodesk
forum has a larger threshold to visit (nntp forums show in my already
open email client), and as long as this forum is on nntp, I will keep
reading. Opening a browser creates too much distubances being met with
whatever banners there will be on whatever startpage you got.

Posting new suggestions or answering questions has become less relevant,
as I have not yet decided or found it worthwile to even evaluate v8. If
there was no hassle or unknowns with creating an autodesk account or
whatever surprises there will be, I probably would have jumped right
onto it with exitement (hey, for all I know I already got an autodesk
account, and I would have to find out what it was). I feel I kinda lost
the mutual relationship with Eagle and I don't know how to act. I have
had extremely good contact deep inside the experienced cadsoft
development team through these channels. Pre 8, I have seen [more]
issues on 7.7 that I would like to suggest improvement for, but I am too
confused to bother. Previously I have been suggesting improvement and
posting bugs, and sometimes helped others, and my issues have mostly
been taken care of in the next revision. I guess this would have
continued with autodesk, if I just found a reason to jump in and opened
the money flow.

Regarding moving to v8.
Now that I know I can postpone any expenses until I really need that
offered new functionality, I can basically wait until they are all
mature and really gives value for the money. At the same time, being as
experienced as I am, I feel I should contribute to suggest the
priorities and directions the new versions take. But I can not give
relevant feedback until I play the game (and pay to play). Compared to
the old days, testing new versions have become a threshold that I am
reluctant to step into. The new licensing system is a bit scary
territory with a lot of unknowns. Maybe it's just the way my old brain
works.

Currently I am about to finnish another complex 16 layer design on v7.7
wich I have been working on for quite a few months (the workload was
very unknown when I started). After this is done, there may be a few
revisions to clean stuff up, then silence for an unknown period, and
maybe smaller periods where the full version is needed again. The new
exiting v8 features came a little late, but I would love to have full
modular designs when I started. I have quite a few re-use candidates on
this board. Going forward, there is no way for me to plan when or how
long I need a license, I have to do guesstimates. If there are delays,
the cost impact is unknown. This may probably be avoided if we calculate
to "throw money at autodesk" to practically get a permanent license, and
if I did continuous pcb development, that would probably be an ok
solution, but I don't do this continuosly. I will move into FPGA
development to get this product running. The best solution would be no
doubt to relax all these unknowns, pay a predictable sum for a permanent
8.x and not worry while I do my real work. At the same time, I could
have posted suggestions and bugs to the nntp forums, while helping out a
couple of noobs while I am at it.

All this said, I guess there must be an economical reason for Cadsoft
selling Eagle. I hope it wasn't just for a quick profit for the owners,
but rather because of difficult times ahead. Having said that, I think
cadsoft could have raised the price if they had the manpower to add
functionality.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169576 is a reply to message #169573] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp:
>> Jan Cumps wrote:
>>
>>> So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
>> Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?
> Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard.

Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation
changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I
already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new
project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool!

Rene
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169577 is a reply to message #169566] Wed, 22 February 2017 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> sorry, but hoping (also hopping and dancing) and praying we can do it in the church.
> In business we have concrete facts.
I don't do church, I do do business. I'm also not hoping and praying or hopping and dancing.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> The fact is that, if Autodesk has a disaster in its territory, for example earthquake or internal political problems in the company,
> millions of users can also close their company or minimum their software.
> Then we all have the huge problem of fixing the billions of damage, with all sorts of court actions.
> If we both have a local problem, others are not affected.
> If other clients have their problems then we are both not affected by these local problems.
>
> This is the next big problem with such a kind of licensing policy.
> These are facts, not belief or hope.
> The license is broken!
I'm sure Autodesk has plenty of servers spread around the world so an earthquake or similar shouldn't be an issue. Internal political problems within the company likely won't shut the servers overnight either. If anything were to happen, I'm pretty sure I could migrate my data elsewhere if I absolutely had to but I have v7 anyway so can always fall back on that. If all the concessions Matt Berggren gave in another thread come to fruition (and I believe they will) then all v8 subscribers should get an equivalent v7 license entitlement.

I'm going to be regularly testing v8 -> v7 compatibility when I go to v8 to ensure I can go back at any point and if that ever breaks you can bet I will be letting Autodesk know about it very quickly. So, I really am not worried and I believe I can mitigate pretty much all the risks associated with the new licensing model.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> We have been waiting four years for a serious and well-functioning software update.
> I have not V7 pro, but only V6.xx. pro, because the V7 is a scrap.
> So I wanted to skip V7 and I've always told Cadsoft, synonymous I have written this in the German and English forums.
> Now with Autodesk, the promised number 8 is here, but with the same weak uptrend.
> And come all the time with hopes and prayers .. I can do that in the church, not in the business market.
I agree, but EAGLE has been starved of resources for years so important new features didn't come to fruition. v7 is pretty good and very stable though so I don't think it's scrap. It may not be a huge step up from v6 but it did improve the library management significantly throughout its releases. Hierarchical design is there but it's a bit of a kludge at the moment, it's usable but it's not ideal. This is one area I hope they will finish off properly in v8.

Again, I'm not doing any praying. They'll have to show that they are actually giving good new features or they'll lose more people to other ECAD packages if they don't see there being significant improvement for their continued subscription money.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> You must be able to continue working if Autodesk does not update the software.
> Otherwise hell is going on, and all this on the whole planet.
>
> Just because Autodesk has a subscription philosophy ... well, this is a "hard tobacco" ...
> Should productivity remain stuck on a global scale?
I just don't see there being a huge risk to not being able to continue working. There are some issues with the new licensing yes, but nothing so severe that it'll completely kill my productivity overnight. I'd always have an out if the worst happened.

Gerald, at the end of the day, for you this licensing change is clearly something you clearly can't accept. That's fine and I respect that, but for me I can make it work. I don't think Autodesk will make the changes you are asking for though :(

I know we are at polar opposites on this issue, I don't think we'll ever completely agree on this topic. Hopefully we can agree to disagree and move on to have better discussions on other topics in future.

As I said in another post, the biggest issue for me is what the licensing change has done to the EAGLE community, this is the thing for me which is hardest to accept, it's quite sad that what was once quite a busy community with lots of people around to offer help and support seems to have been fractured with a lot of the long time users dropping out of sight. I hope once the dust settles and things calm down, that some of these people come back....

Best wishes,

Rachael



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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169578 is a reply to message #169575] Wed, 22 February 2017 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Morten Leikvoll wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 11:23
Since I'm probably one of the long time users, and at least periodically visiting nearly every day, here is my status:


Hi Morten,

You are indeed one of the long term users I was referring to and I have personally missed your input into the forums in the last month or so. I do appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts today and I hope I see you back on here more frequently once you have had time to fully digest the implications of the changes on you Smile

Best Regards,

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169579 is a reply to message #169573] Wed, 22 February 2017 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Congratulation! now we are confirm.
Full into the target.

Yes that's what i meant.

Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )
because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.
FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.
The last 4U backplane was 6 layer high but we saved space because we didn't mounted all components.
Now, you'll see I'm flexible also in discussions.
But right now, we need "nails with heads".

The first problem,  like atomic explosion, is after expiring the license period.
I can't often enough argument this.

Best Regards,
Gerald
---

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169580 is a reply to message #169576] Wed, 22 February 2017 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> CadSoft Guest wrote:
>
> Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp:
>>> Jan Cumps wrote:
>>>
>>>> So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?
>>> Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?
>> Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard.
>
> Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation
> changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I
> already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new
> project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool!
>
> Rene
>
>
>
Hi Rene,

Yes I take your point. But for me, the cost of the premium license is relatively insignificant when compared to other costs involved in designing electronics. Even on a relatively small project the cost of prototyping a design will be the dominant cost in the early stages even before you consider things like certifications and production transition costs. If the cost of the Premium subscription was not financially viable I think that would be the least of my worries. I appreciate that everybody is different and have different costs but I would just factor in an amount for keeping EAGLE on active subscription into my budgeting and then either buy annual subscriptions or put the money to one side to cover the cost of the licensing. At the end of the financial year you'd then either be on budget or you'd have a surplus which you could put towards something else you'd like. I'm looking at this from a business perspective. I'd likely have upgraded every 18 months to 2 years when a new version came out with the previous licensing so on balance the new change isn't costing me any more. Personal users will likely have a different view and I do feel for the previous Maker license owners who have no path to an equivalent v8 license.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169581 is a reply to message #169579] Wed, 22 February 2017 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )
> because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.
> FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.
So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it :-)

Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> The first problem, like atomic explosion, is after expiring the license period.
> I can't often enough argument this.
Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169582 is a reply to message #169581] Wed, 22 February 2017 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi,

>> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>
>> Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )
>> because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.
>> FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.
> So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it
>
> Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable.
Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes.

> Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!
I also hope that Autodesk read this.
I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

Best Regards,
Gerald
---

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169583 is a reply to message #169582] Wed, 22 February 2017 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Hi Gerald,

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" )
>>> because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips.
>>> FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard.
>> So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it
>>
>> Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable.
> Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes.
Ok, that's good. Lets see if they are reading and what they say then.

> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>> Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!
> I also hope that Autodesk read this.
> I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.
You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169584 is a reply to message #169583] Wed, 22 February 2017 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alberto Vignati
Messages: 20
Registered: December 2010
Junior Member
Hi Rachael,

Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto:

>> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>> Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!
>> I also hope that Autodesk read this.
>> I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.
> You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.
>

you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version
(I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematic+layout+autorouter), but this
is an hope, not neccessarly a truth. Please, consider a scenario in
which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some
reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old
design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to
a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your
data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer
available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and
perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete.
This can easily happen if revenues will be not enought and Autodesk will
decide to stop Eagle and no one will buy the "Cadsoft" division. They
are trying an experiment and the success is not guaranteed. They have
taken into account to lose customers like me, if 95% of customers are
like me the experiment will fail.
In such scenario you can cope if you have, for example, the release you
used at that time in a virtual machine. In a perpetual model this works,
in a subscription model not. Said that, I can not accept a license model
in which the software functions expire. I can accept a maintenance model
because the software never expires, I lose only the right to upgrade and
the support, not functionalities. I have some tools in a maintenance
model: if I stop the maintenance and after a while I will decide to
restart, I will have to recover the lack of maintenance period, which is
expensive, at limit I will have to pay the full license price, but I
never and never lose the functionalities of the software, never. This is
a very big worth, this is vital for me.
Why Autodesk refuses this schema? Revenues are similar... They want to
"got married" you with their products: if you decide to change the tool
you will have to pay for maintaining the old projects: you will have to
pay twice!
I am satisfied of Eagle, but if nothing changes, I will have to switch
to an alternative. This *only and only and only* due to the new license
model.

Kind regards

Alberto
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169585 is a reply to message #169584] Wed, 22 February 2017 14:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Alberto Vignati wrote:
>
> Hi Rachael,
>
> Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto:
>
>>> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>>>> Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!
>>> I also hope that Autodesk read this.
>>> I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.
>> You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though.
>>
>
> you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematic+layout+autorouter), but this is an hope, not neccessarly a truth.
>
Nope, I am not relying on any hope of backwards compatibility with v7. Please read all my post. I will regularly check things go backwards to my perpetual v7 license and if that ever breaks I will be straight onto Autodesk to get it resolved. There is no hope, only certainty. If at any point a v8 update ceases to be enable me to go back to v7 I will not use that update until it's resolved. Simple. I have v7 forever, I have a plan to mitigate backwards compatibility and I am happy with it.

> Alberto Vignati wrote:
>
> Please, consider a scenario in which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete.
>
Yes I understand the argument but I think I have this covered. I agree, just being able to open up the exact version of EAGLE I used and know it will work forever is by far the preferable option but I think my way of mitigating the risk is enough such that if I was ever in this situation I could revert to my old v7 license.

At the end of the day, for me this licensing change is far less horrible/evil than the flexlm style licensing Farnell tried to do to EAGLE which I assume was to introduce a maintenance system. I hate flexlm type licensing as it means it's not usually possible to legitimately use your license on multiple machines (not simultaneously) without having an annoying dongle situation to provide node locking for this (I don't want node locking and dongles are a failure point. You can lose a dongle or it could stop working and you'd be stuffed until you could get a new dongle. I've seen this before and it usually happens when you have a critical deadline....) or a network license server which makes it impossible to take your laptop away somewhere and still use your license unless that was also hosting your license server too, in which case if you are away and your laptop got stolen, whoops you can't use your EAGLE again on your main network until you've rebuilt a new license server.... It all gets annoying very quickly with flexlm style licensing and to me risks much more down time so the current online activation seems much less of a pain.

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to be able to have the ability to make the current subscription version permanent (maybe with a final payment to convert the license) if I ended the subscription but that isn't currently an option so I am not going to worry about it as I can mitigate the risks in other ways.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169586 is a reply to message #169555] Wed, 22 February 2017 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tomas Franke
Messages: 3
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.
Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.
Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169587 is a reply to message #169586] Wed, 22 February 2017 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Tomas Franke wrote:
>
> I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.
> Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.
> Eagle is killed by Autodesk..
Hi Tomas,

I agree with you here, assuming your requirements are greater than those of the available freeware license, there should at least be an equivalent non-commercial license at very low cost equivalent to the previous maker license. There currently isn't an option at that end which is unfortunate as I think having such a license would help a lot of people out and stop them leaving for KiCAD. I guess we'll have to wait and see if Autodesk decide to do anything else on the licensing front.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169588 is a reply to message #169555] Wed, 22 February 2017 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45
I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated....

I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things. We all returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but...

Quote:
I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though.

Richard seems to be hanging around in the EAGLE - Deutsch forum.

Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the nntp servers will be shut off?
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169589 is a reply to message #169575] Wed, 22 February 2017 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
Hey Morten,

It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I
know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.

I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember
that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out
the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for
$65.00 for one month).

The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than
E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,
kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a
big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16
layer board, wow).

We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right
now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans
out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable
future(in Rachel's terms).

Let us know if there's anything we can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia


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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169590 is a reply to message #168341] Wed, 22 February 2017 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Reaves
Messages: 2
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle. The one and ONLY reason Autodesk is changing to the subscription model is to generate revenue, no matter what they say in public. The could have left the program licensing alone and had a large group of dedicated users many
of which would be willing to pay for upgrades under the old system. I for one will never buy any major software packages that require exorbitant fees to maintain what already works for me. Just because "everyone else in doing it" is no excuse. It did not work when I was a teenager and it certainly falls on deaf ears now. I think they needed something to compete with SolidWorks (which is a better program than anything that Autodesk has turned out) who recently teamed up with Altium for their PCB package. Unfortunately for Autodesk Eagle is not in the same league as Altium. So they are still stinging from when they had their behinds beat when SolidWorks first released their product and a lot of AutoCAD seats (along with the annual revenue) disappeared. After that the company that bought SolidWorks (Desault Systems, they also own Catia) released DraftSight for Free which can read and write all AutoCAD formats, this killed off 2D for Autodesk for many. The lack of backwards file saving with newer versions was one of issues with later versions of AutoCAD as they change the .dwg format so you coulkd not save backward compatible versions, this was a big shortfall for companies that work with many vendors, some of which could not afford to keep updating).So again like my Dad told me if someone tells you it's not about the money it usually is.

On low cost and probably better PCB alternatives:

For most of my PCB work I use an inexpensive program called SprintLayout6.0 from Abacom. Costs $50.00 and does a lot of amazing things. Support is wonderful. Product only needs something like 6MB. Okay no autorouter or netlist in/out but I never use one anyway. It is only "lacking" in features that
lazy PCB designers need for the most part for 2-4 layer boards. I have made 100's of bug free boards with it. It may not be what you need (or think you need) but for 50 bucks you might want to give it a spin and see how well it works. You can directly import those Eagle 274X gerbers with your drill file and turn it into an editable PCB. This alone is worth the 50 bucks.

Sprint-Layout (http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html)

My full take on EEVBlog:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/great-substitute-for-eagle-(now-that-it-has-been-autodesk'ed)/

The other choice for more powerful work would be DipTrace. One time fee. Upgrades free. Something like $1195.00 for the full boat (unlimited pins and layers) version. If you are a hobby or non-profit you can get the full boat one for 348.00

www.diptrace.com

Of course there is KeyCAD which I need to take a look at.

Sam
W3OHM

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169591 is a reply to message #169590] Wed, 22 February 2017 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
> I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle.

Ow come on. It has had the biggest development injection since forever.
Your push to jump to another tool on eevblog hasn't got any support. A single negative reaction.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169592 is a reply to message #169586] Wed, 22 February 2017 18:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit.
> Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't.
> Eagle is killed by Autodesk..
Hobbies always incur into some expense, so having a commercially supported program with a team of developers and support personnel providing the best answer possible to your inquiries for a modest subscription of around $100/year doesn't seem like a really big ask. You can use a monthly subscription and only update your entitlement when necessary.  But I guess the ball is in our court now, its a matter of proving to the community how committed to continue making EAGLE a great product :).
Best Regards,
Ed
EAGLE Forums (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169595 is a reply to message #169592] Wed, 22 February 2017 19:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile. There is absolutely no reason that Autodesk can't offer both subscription and perpetual licenses, other than they must know that most EagleCAD users would opt for the latter and their Eagle division would not be able to extract maximum revenue. Sad, as everyone knows what eventually happens to businesses that prioritize their revenue stream over serving their customers. Frankly a pcb design tool that doesn't do simulation is not bleeding edge technology and hasn't been for a long time. It doesn't matter how much you "improve" it, it's still just a schematic capture and layout tool, perhaps with a prettier UI. If you want to add exotic simulation capabilities to that, great, but get your revenues from things like that that are truly improvements.

Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169596 is a reply to message #169589] Wed, 22 February 2017 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dietmar Schwertberger
Messages: 30
Registered: April 2011
Member
On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than
> E-14 but I know that's not saying much.
If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just
as your forums have. Right?
Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow.


Regards,

Dietmar
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169599 is a reply to message #169590] Wed, 22 February 2017 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Sam Reaves wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 18:08
I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle.


Yep. After a year or so they'll pull the plug because of lack of revenue.
I guess they are already in panic and don't know how to solve the situation they are in.
The big boss shouted to them "Whatever you do, NO perpetual license!!".
And now they are with their back to the wall, unsure if they will still have a job next year...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169606 is a reply to message #169595] Wed, 22 February 2017 21:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 19:06
I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile.


Hi Brett,

From what you are saying it actually sounds like the subscription fits you perfectly. When you don't need it you don't keep your subscription going but when you want it again you simply renew your subscription online at the level you need for the project you are about to undertake. You don't need to spend $500 per year to keep the subscription going if you aren't going to use it.... If you need it for a month or two ever year or so then it's only going to be costing you $65 to $130 when you need it assuming Premium or if you only need to do a small 4 layer board then, well it's only going to be $15 to $30, well short of the $500/year...

Best Regards,

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169607 is a reply to message #169606] Wed, 22 February 2017 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 21:43
Hi Brett,


Hi Brent,

I also apologise for calling you Brett in my last message!

Best Regards,

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169608 is a reply to message #169606] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Hi Rachael

Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169609 is a reply to message #169608] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13
Hi Rachael

Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

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Hi Brent,

Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much....

Best Regards,

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169610 is a reply to message #169608] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13
a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month.


Also, if you just need to check something then you can open and view in the freeware version just fine. If the changes are minor (even if they are not that minor) you could just do them in a v7 licensed EAGLE which no doubt you will have hanging around still.

Best Regards,

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169611 is a reply to message #169609] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you -- I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well.

Best,
Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169612 is a reply to message #169591] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Reaves
Messages: 2
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Jan,

What you say makes no sense if one looks at the Eagle community that I
know. It seams by my count on EEVblog or wherever I have looked that the
vast majority of Eagle users are NOT in favor of the pay forever
subscription model, especially if the current version does all that they
need.

In many cases quality software can be used for decades without any updates.
I ran Tango Series II DOS for years at the last version only having to
abandon it due only to the inability to run it on modern operating systems.
Ask the fellows out there that are still running OrCAD 386+ DOS in DOSBox.
It runs perfectly fine and you can still make any PCB you want with it.
There are users out there that still do the real work with the DOS version
because in the end it's the Gerber files that define the board. As long as
you can make the files you need with whatever software you are running that
is all that really counts. For the Eagle users that have been satisfied
with what they purchased there is no real advantage to upgrading and in
fact I have seen more issues in the software world break with an upgrade.

On the single response that you note my preference for a tool is just a
suggestion users can try it or not but I do not know any other program that
offers the performance at 10X the cost (actuallly 20X as it has more power
than my Tango Series II had and it was purchased for 995.00 in 1980's era
dollard. Don't knock it until you tried it. It's quick, simple and low
cost. Everything that ANY subscription model isn't

One more issue: Government entities do not like any type of online register
only or cloud based systems due to security concerns. Eagle will probably
loose some customers that fall into that category as well. I know quite a
few that use LPKF machines to make boards for "black projects" and a lot of
them used Eagle.

I short AutoDesk should have just let the sleeping dog lie.

I should have added the usual disclaimer that I have no financial interest
in any of the companies I have mentioned nor any distributors of same.

Best regards,

Sam

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169613 is a reply to message #169611] Wed, 22 February 2017 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Brent Bolton wrote:
>
> Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you -- I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well.
>
> Best,
> Brent
Hi Brent,

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen I don't think and what we have now is way better than what Farnell tried to do and at least now there is significant development resources going into improving EAGLE. I could get angry about the licensing but that wont solve anything so I am choosing to be positive about it and move forward. I can mitigate the negatives, and on balance it will cost me about the same as I will just have annual premium subscriptions which, factoring in upgrade cycles previously, works out about the same. Additionally, if I need any short term assistance and need a second license for a few months it works out a lot cheaper as I wont need to buy a complete second license Just a second subscription for a short period.

Bedt Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169614 is a reply to message #169613] Wed, 22 February 2017 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barry Walker
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2012
Junior Member
Rachael,

You are missing the big picture.  Many of us do not believe Eagle can survive under this new licensing model.  Over the years I have moved 4 different companies to Eagle, none of them are interested in the subscription license.  Clearly there are a few of you who can accept the new model, but the question is are there enough of you to keep Eagle alive at Autodesk.  My calculation is no.  They will miss their revenue goals and the project will be abandon.  Their promises of more improvements and backward compatibility are worth exactly as much as their promise 6 months ago that they wouldn't go subscription.

It's our responsibility as business people to evaluate the viability of our suppliers.   Subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because they won't attract the customers.  The value proposition just isn't there.  They have no defensible market between KiCad and Altium.  Non-subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because it doesn't match their integrated software as a service goals.  So Eagle is dead.  That is very painful for many of us.  It actually makes me sick in my stomach, but you have to deal with the hard reality.  There is no reason to risk your company's productivity on someone else's fantasy business model even if the community used to be enjoyable.  I think any time spent on v8 is wasted in the long run.

Sorry

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169615 is a reply to message #169608] Wed, 22 February 2017 23:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 22.02.2017 23:13, Brent Bolton wrote:
> The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly.

Yep, exactly.

> I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company.

The guy in charge of our Inventor Licenses at my company is also pissed
and will stay with Inventor 2014 as long as possible as Autodesk refuses
to sell perpetual licenses. Gained revenue for Autodesk = NIL

So that makes already two people being pissed :-)

As a lot of people said, it's not about the money. I would even buy a
perpetual license if it's double the price it was before at CadSoft,
even with the EUR surcharge. To support the development. It's money in
advance for Autodesk.

But I will not let me be treaten as cash cow ad infinitum.

So no pertpetual license = money paid from my side = NIL

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169616 is a reply to message #169542] Wed, 22 February 2017 23:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 21.02.2017 22:54, Ed Robledo wrote:

> The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there.

It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the
customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.

Ah wait.... Democracy has issues in the US recently...

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169617 is a reply to message #169616] Wed, 22 February 2017 23:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the
> customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.

Why? You don't need to chose one or the other. You can have both licensing models at the same time and if someone is willing to take the risk with the online activation license... good luck to him.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169618 is a reply to message #169616] Wed, 22 February 2017 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
Commerse is delivering a product that the costumer wants, and asking a competitive price for that.

if you let your customers poll what your price should be, you're bankrupt in minutes.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169619 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 23 February 2017 00:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
eaglecandies
Messages: 185
Registered: September 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Senior Member
posted : Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen

Why would it not happen? What would prevent it? Autodesk is giving upon Eagle business already?? I'm not sure what the difficulty Autodesk has in reverting to the standard Eagle license. They can still offer a subscription.

This should probably be moved up the chain of command at Autodesk or its board members--if they hear that many many customers are getting more & more upset with Autodesk products, hindered development and not listening to customers, then they may be inclined to listen more attentively.

There are many EDA news boards out there and the facts of how Eagle customers are being treated can be posted there as well. They may want to consider what is happening with Eagle when evaluating it.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169620 is a reply to message #169617] Thu, 23 February 2017 07:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1340
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 23.02.2017 00:41, rbtx99 wrote:
>> It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the
>> customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.
>
> Why? You don't need to chose one or the other. You can have both licensing models at the same time and if someone is willing to take the risk with the online activation license... good luck to him.
>

I guess supporting both models has some bad drawbacks. Autodesk would
have to maintain every version up to each customers level, and there is
no way they can handle revisions of all the old versions. I think
autodesk wants a flat version model, where all the focus goes into the
next common release, and those who pay get to play.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169621 is a reply to message #169613] Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen


How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription".
You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us.

If (almost) nobody takes a subscription, they or the new owner have to revert back the license.
Farnell did it and I believe autodesk or the new owner will do it as well.
We just have to be more patient than them.


Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169622 is a reply to message #169617] Thu, 23 February 2017 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Markus Rudolf
Messages: 179
Registered: September 2008
Senior Member
On 23.02.2017 00:41, rbtx99 wrote:
>> It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the
>> customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.
>
> Why? You don't need to chose one or the other.

Just to have statistics. To see that you piss off <insert poll result
here> percent of the users right now. And to think about it when you see
the actual figures.

Markus
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169623 is a reply to message #169621] Thu, 23 February 2017 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42
rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen


How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription".
You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us.


Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely.

Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can wait and see how things pan out.

Rachael
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169624 is a reply to message #169589] Thu, 23 February 2017 07:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1340
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote:
> Hey Morten,
>
> It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I
> know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now.
>
> I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember
> that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out
> the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for
> $65.00 for one month).

If I weigh this up against what I already have in 7.7, I cant find this
cost justifying much. I have to wait until there are alot of new
features, and I know that will take time. It is kinda sad that I won't
be in the loop to give feedback, because I know I have a lot of
knowledge and great wishes for the eagle future, at least from the
advanced user perspective. Anyway, subscribing for a single month is out
of the question for my kind of use.


> The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than
> E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it,
> kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a
> big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16
> layer board, wow).

I have been looking at it, and it looks "ok", but not better than nntp.
There is too much space, too many images wanting your attention (ok,
just a few, but still an infinite multiplum of none), no simple overview
of all messages, too much empty space, too slow to open a message, ...
If I spent more time analyzing, I could probably find more
to whine about.
16 layers yes, I was even considering using more. In fact Eagle can do
that(!), because a lot of the layers are plain reference ground for
impedance and signal integrity. Since I got no blind or buried vias, I
could have used the same layer to generate multiple reference planes in
the CAM processor (or my own gerber export ULP).

> We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right
> now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans
> out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing.

I don't know where your core business is, but imo eagle is a tool for
low to middle end small-medium sized boards, and I have been challenging
its functions for the professional end, so I don't see myself as the
typical user. If it wasnt for the ULP support and my programming
knowledge, I would probably looked around for alternatives.

> Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable
> future(in Rachel's terms).

I know you are. I hope to stay too. I'm pretty sure I will, but I can't
promise you I won't look around. Early in this acquistition process, the
pricing was the potential thing that scared me most, and my fears came
through. Afaics, only the recurrent full pricing is a real option to me,
and that seems to be a significant increase. Autodesk seems to want
another payment for all the old functionality over again (remember I
already have it), or they price the new functionality very high. The
[one year?] discount for old customers doesn't make a great impact.

> Let us know if there's anything we can do for you.

I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this
money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time)
when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will
be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance
(wich is cool, but not that important to me).

> Best Regards,
> Jorge Garcia
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169628 is a reply to message #169623] Thu, 23 February 2017 08:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Leikvoll
Messages: 1340
Registered: November 2007
Senior Member
On 23.02.2017 08:50, Rachael wrote:
> Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42
>> rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52
>>> Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license
>>> model, but it is not going to happen
>>
>>
>> How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going
>> subscription".
>> You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you
>> have more info than us.
>
>
> Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have
> just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and
> tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do
> trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is
> unlikely.
>
> Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a
> subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new
> features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can
> wait and see how things pan out.
>
> Rachael

Rachael, I think they believe you are employed by autodesk/cadsoft
becase of the amount of messages you put here ;) Don't you have some
routing to do? :D Yes, when I start to write, I realize I spend quite a
bit of time on it too!

Joop, there is a link to another forum where a user apparently being
Matt claimed this. You can find the link somewhere else in this already
too long thread.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169629 is a reply to message #169628] Thu, 23 February 2017 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
Morten Leikvoll wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 08:01
Rachael, I think they believe you are employed by autodesk/cadsoft becase of the amount of messages you put here Wink Don't you have some routing to do? Very Happy Yes, when I start to write, I realize I spend quite a bit of time on it too!

Yes that's a good point, I do actually have some routing I should go and do!
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169630 is a reply to message #169613] Thu, 23 February 2017 08:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Fecht
Messages: 118
Registered: November 2004
Senior Member
Am 22.02.2017 um 23:52 schrieb rachaelp:
>
> Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen I don't think and what we have now is way better than what Farnell tried to do and at least now there is significant development resources going into improving EAGLE. I could get angry about the licensing but that wont solve anything so I am choosing to be positive about it and move forward. I can mitigate the negatives, and on balance it will cost me about the same as I will just have annual premium subscriptions which, factoring in upgrade cycles previously, works out about the same. Additionally, if I need any short term assistance and need a second license for a few months it works out a lot cheaper as I wont need to buy a complete second license Just a second subscription for a short period.
>
> Bedt Regards,
>
> Rachael
>

I think autodesk have calculated this risk before:
"If we increase the average price/month about 500%, we can lose ~70% of
the old users and we earn more money than with that old license model."

This is a typical decision behavior of big companies. Short thinking
with quarterly financial statements.

The next step is: "If we lose more than 80% we kill this Eagle experiment."

Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a
crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.

Andreas
Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169631 is a reply to message #169623] Thu, 23 February 2017 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
rachaelp wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 08:50
... and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely.


Unlikely but possible. And ofcourse they want to let believe us it's unlikely.
Keep in mind that they are salesmen. They tell whatever they think is good for
their business and their jobs. You can not trust them.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169632 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 23 February 2017 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ian Mackenzie
Messages: 1
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Hi Matt,

"  a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it).  The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. "

Can you confirm how this works - is it as simple as an option from a pull down menu that activate & deactivates the subscription  - if so then this would be very good! As a casual / contract person I use the software infrequently however I need the full Premium version when I do. In the past I have had to squeeze designs into smaller than ideal spaces and use less than the ideal number of layers just because there is insufficient work to justify the cost of the full software. It would be ideal if I could use and pay for the full software for only a few months a year - hey I also know retirees that would love this model giving them full features but only paying when they have a project going.

Ian

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. . [message #169633 is a reply to message #169630] Thu, 23 February 2017 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Andreas Fecht wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 09:23

Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a
crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.


I have been thinking about that as well. First we have to wait for a year to make
autodesk realize their investment is lost.

Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169634 is a reply to message #169630] Thu, 23 February 2017 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Angelos Gonias
Messages: 27
Registered: September 2015
Junior Member
> Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a
> crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.
>

I doubt they are willing to do that. SolidWorks now has a PCB design option ( SOLIDWORKS PCB | Electrical Design Packages | SOLIDWORKS ( http://www.solidworks.co.uk/sw/products/electrical-design/solidworks-pcb.ht m) ) and I am guessing Autodesk bought EAGLE so they can catch up with that. I don't think their marketing decisions put much weight on the old EAGLE customers, they just wanted to add PCB design functionality to their product portfolio.

This may or may not be a successful plan. I have yet to see any electronics engineer use SolidWorks for PCB design. Plus mechanical and electronics people have different favourites.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing..   . [message #169636 is a reply to message #169631] Thu, 23 February 2017 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
> Guest wrote:
>
> ... And ofcourse they want to let believe us it's
> unlikely.
> Keep in mind that they are salesmen. They tell whatever they think is good
> for
> their business and their jobs. You can not trust them.
>
> --
> EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .eaglecentral.ca) :: Where the EAGLE community meets.
>
and I guess that with this comment we've reached the bottom. It's bizarre what I'm reading in this thread.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169637 is a reply to message #169636] Thu, 23 February 2017 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Silva
Messages: 1
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Too bad Eagle Cad wasnt Open Source or maybe AutoDesk "could" make the 7.7.0 version open to the community for support and development. A fork if you will. Find a happy medium for size and layers and be done with it. Folks or companies that want the full version would simply pay for 8x and above.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169640 is a reply to message #169637] Thu, 23 February 2017 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joop_
Messages: 67
Registered: March 2007
Member
Chris Silva wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 14:52
Too bad Eagle Cad wasnt Open Source or maybe AutoDesk "could" make the 7.7.0 version open to the community for support and development. A fork if you will. Find a happy medium for size and layers and be done with it. Folks or companies that want the full version would simply pay for 8x and above.


The price isn't the problem. The subscription is the problem.
They don't even let you buy a license for the old V7 or V6 anymore.


Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169643 is a reply to message #169629] Thu, 23 February 2017 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Rachael,

Are you a pensioner? A lady or man?

Because i saw that you here every time and you everywhere posts here.
(since nov2015 nearly 25000 posts) and you'll staying at Eagle 7.7.0 and waits
that Autodesk do something likely for you....

Best Regards,
Gerald
---

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169644 is a reply to message #169643] Thu, 23 February 2017 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Hi Rachael,
>
> Are you a pensioner? A lady or man?
>
> Because i saw that you here every time and you everywhere posts here.
> (since nov2015 nearly 25000 posts) and you'll staying at Eagle 7.7.0 and waits
> that Autodesk do something likely for you....
>
> Best Regards,
> Gerald
> ---
:^0

Hi Gerald,

I am a lady and no I am not a pensioner! :D I work from my home office and have these forums up regularly to keep up with what's going on. I don't have nearly 25000 posts, I have nearly 25000 *points* on Element14. My actual number of posts is considerably less. I actually joined EAGLECentral before Element14 so my posts on there started in March 2015. To date I have 502 posts in the EAGLE forums (EAGLECentral and Element14 EAGLE forums both sync to the CADSoft NNTP servers so are effectively the same content) but more than that in total on Element 14 as I also post in other areas on there. Still, likely to be around 1000 posts total I suspect although I don't know how I can calculate an exact figure on there.

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169645 is a reply to message #169632] Thu, 23 February 2017 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mark Sauerwald
Messages: 15
Registered: September 2014
Junior Member
Ian

I used to work in the broadcast video industry, and they have a model which works something like this.  You can buy editing tools which run on firmware, and then rent, short-term, different options for your machine.  In this way, I can have a business where I do some task on TV commercials, and when a client comes to me and wants me to do a job on his commercial which is in a different format from what I usually use, I can rent support for that format for a month, and I then have the full capability to support that client, for the term of that job.   After that, I can still view, save, send the work, but can't edit it without renting that particular module again.

The issue that I have is that if I move to Eagle 8, I am locking my future designs into a software tool for which I have to trust Autocad that I will have continued access.   Autocad have broken promises recently, so that trust is not there, and that is what makes me hesitant to use anything beyond the Version 7 that I currently have a license for.

Mark

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169646 is a reply to message #169632] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/23/2017 4:45 AM, Ian Mackenzie wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> " a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. "
>
> Can you confirm how this works - is it as simple as an option from a pull down menu that activate & deactivates the subscription - if so then this would be very good! As a casual / contract person I use the software infrequently however I need the full Premium version when I do. In the past I have had to squeeze designs into smaller than ideal spaces and use less than the ideal number of layers just because there is insufficient work to justify the cost of the full software. It would be ideal if I could use and pay for the full software for only a few months a year - hey I also know retirees that would love this model giving them full features but only paying when they have a project going.
>
> Ian
>
> --
> To view any images and attachments in this post, visit:
> https://www.element14.com/community/message/216583
>

Hello Ian,

I hope you're doing well. Here's the process:

1. Visit http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe choose the
monthly option you want (Standard or Premium) and click subscribe online.
2. In the next screen you select add to cart.
3. Now you can pick however many months you wish to buy of EAGLE use.
4. Continue with the rest of the process.

Once the order has been processed (in many cases can be instantaneous,
in the worst case a few hours). Your Autodesk account will have an
entitlement for EAGLE.

Open up the latest version of EAGLE 8 and sign into your Autodesk
Account. Once the sign in is successful EAGLE will show that you have
the version you paid for. If you run into issues contact support.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

--
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169648 is a reply to message #168341] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barry Walker
Messages: 11
Registered: May 2012
Junior Member
If you (Autodesk) are interested in my position on the license changes please follow me on a thought experiment.

Imagine I run a medium sized software development company producing graphical software used to develop GUI elements.  Now imagine that in this parallel universe I was able to purchase the text editor / IDE / compiler system Autodesk has used to develop their software for the last 10 years.

It should be clear where I am going, but perhaps I can add some additional insight.

Obviously I update the licensing terms to a subscription model and require you to check in with my license server every two weeks.  I also require you to upgrade on my schedule and disallow use of non-current versions.

Are you pleased with this new arrangement?

Do any of these statements make you happy about this new arrangement (or even less angry)?
1. The license will cost less than a cup of coffee each day per seat (for now).
2. There is a free version where you can see all your source code (but you still have to check in with our server).  You can even edit the first 1000 lines!
3. You can use the free version to compile executables smaller than 256MB. (As long as you don't sell those executables.)
4. There will be exciting new features.  (Remember I also told you we wouldn't move to subscription.)
5. You can cancel your subscriptions and re-subscribe as often as you like to reduce the overall cost.
6. Overall this is going to save you money.  (But we won't even offer you the presumably more expensive legacy license terms.)
7. We are going to integrate these tools with our other graphical development software. (Which you don't use.)
8. The license system is fully functional and has no bugs so stop complaining about the license system.
9. Microsoft and Adobe have very successful subscription operations.
10. There may be ways for awhile to use the any newly developed source code with your previously licensed tool set version. (We won't sell any more licenses of that old version.)

I expect you are frightened by my mythical company's attempt to control a key aspect of your development process.  Take a breath.  Keep in mind that in this parallel universe there exist free development tools that may require some training.  There are also much more capable tools that cost more but whose licensing leaves you much more in control of your destiny.

*Would Autodesk sign up for my subscription offering?*

One more exercise:

Now you are not Autodesk.  Imagine you are a small startup, a hobbyist, or a company who only develops software part time in support of other products.   Should I expect any of these other customers to embrace my new licensing model for my software development tools?

Now we are back.  You are Autodesk and I was your customer.  I hope you can see why I will never give you this control over my business.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169649 is a reply to message #169619] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/22/2017 7:46 PM, Hoyt wrote:
> posted : Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license
> model, but it is not going to happen
> Why would it not happen? What would prevent it? Autodesk is giving upon
> Eagle business already?? I'm not sure what the difficulty Autodesk has in
> reverting to the standard Eagle license. They can still offer a
> subscription.

Hello Hoyt,

I hope you're having a good day. Autodesk is not giving up on EAGLE at
all, that's why so much work . However Autodesk has almost 3 million
subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model
works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model.

In order for Autodesk to back off of this subscription for
everything(Every Autodesk product has moved to subscription for new
licenses) model a substantial portion of those 3 million subscribers
would have to drop out.

So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is
much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would
make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge,
it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products.

That's why in this and in other forums, I've been informing users not to
expect a change in the licensing model. This isn't Farnell, Autodesk is
a software company and they have carefully calculated what they are
getting into by making this switch.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169650 is a reply to message #169648] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
B-)Yep, :^0 fully agree!
GOOOOAAL!!! - which gate? ....  :^0

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169651 is a reply to message #169649] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rk
Messages: 386
Registered: February 2005
Senior Member
Am 23.02.2017 um 18:29 schrieb Jorge Garcia:
> So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is
> much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would
> make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge,
> it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products.

So it was meant to go subscription from the very beginning. You were
intentionally misleading us. Applause!

Thank you very much!
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169653 is a reply to message #169649] Thu, 23 February 2017 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Jorge,

at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings?
EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe)
The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing?

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169655 is a reply to message #169653] Thu, 23 February 2017 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings?
> EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk ( https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .autodesk.com%2Fproducts%2Feagle%2Fsubscribe)
> The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing?
>
> Best Regards,
> Gerald
> ---
I was wondering that too.... I'd also like it if the discount for existing v7 subscribers was able to be applied to the 3 year subscription and not just the 1 year license which I think is the current limitation, although I am not sure as I never received any details of the arrangement. As far as I am concerned there should be incentives for buying a 3 year subscription, after all you are giving Autodesk more money up front so there should be some pay back for that....

Best Regards,

Rachael

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169657 is a reply to message #169655] Thu, 23 February 2017 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Yes, and we have the next fundamental problem: 30 day money back guaranty.
But, what happens if i wish to unsubscribe after two month, or half year, year (by 3 y subs.) ....
get i back the rest of unused money?
That's a lot of money what i lose...

Gerald
---

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169658 is a reply to message #169657] Thu, 23 February 2017 18:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rachaelp
Messages: 532
Registered: March 2015
Location: UK
Senior Member
> Gerald Schwarz wrote:
>
> Yes, and we have the next fundamental problem: 30 day money back guaranty.
> But, what happens if i wish to unsubscribe after two month, or half year, year (by 3 y subs.) ....
> get i back the rest of unused money?
> That's a lot of money what i lose...
>
> Gerald
> ---
I think if you are thinking you might want to cancel after 2 months then then 1 or 3 year subscriptions are probably not right for you.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169659 is a reply to message #169649] Thu, 23 February 2017 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
Quote:
So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would make an exception just for us.

As I observed in another message here on EAGLE Central, "EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation".

Quote:
Autodesk has almost 3 million subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model.

I would have thought there were a lot more than 3 million. There are "more than 4 million engineers in the EAGLE online PCB community" alone. See http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/features/online-pcb-community

Quote:
Features
Connect with the largest online PCB community
Get the answers you need and learn along the way from more than 4 million engineers in the EAGLE online PCB community.

I'm not saying Autodesk is evil, I just think it's big and impersonal and that's a huge change for us EAGLE people. We're just x number out of 3,000,000 at Autodesk, where we used to be x of x at Cadsoft. Sigh...
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169661 is a reply to message #169653] Thu, 23 February 2017 18:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorge Garcia
Messages: 1282
Registered: April 2010
Senior Member
On 2/23/2017 12:59 PM, Gerald Schwarz wrote:
> Hi Jorge,
>
> at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings?
> EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe)
> The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing?
>
> Best Regards,
> Gerald
> ---
>
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Hi Gerald,

I hope you're doing well. I got some information about this. What I was
instructed to do is to have any customers with pricing questions go here:
https://knowledge.autodesk.com/contact-support/purchases-returns/buying-aut odesk-software

Pricing at Autodesk is handled by a totally different department, so any
such inquiries have to go through them.

That's all of the info I have.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169664 is a reply to message #169649] Thu, 23 February 2017 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Hi Jorge,

"So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is
much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would
make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge,
it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products."

Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come.

Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169665 is a reply to message #169649] Thu, 23 February 2017 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Royce Arnold
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
Junior Member
> CadSoft Guest wrote:
>
> In order for Autodesk to back off of this subscription for
> everything(Every Autodesk product has moved to subscription for new
> licenses) model a substantial portion of those 3 million subscribers
> would have to drop out.
>
Jorge,

Would you please break down that 3 million subscribers?  I'm may be one of them but I have a Maintenance Subscription not the Desktop Subscription.  For the users on Maintenance Subscription, we still have perpetual license rights.  That is the sole reason, I'm still providing any money to AutoDesk.  It goes and I'm gone (after 25+ years as a user).  Actually we are gone because we have 2 licenses.  Alas, Maintenance Subscription are no longer sold unless you are grandfathered in to them and only on certain products.

Now, if what you said is true that the vast majority of users are satisfied with the new subscription model, why is AutoDesk still offering the maintenance subscription model?

I felt compelled to respond, because I'm not sure everyone is aware of the existence of Maintenance Subscription with Perpetual license rights.  And since they are both referred to as subscriptions, your 3 million probably included both.  Without knowing the breakdown, your statement is hard to evaluate.

Please do not get me wrong,  I understand AutoDesk's position.  Their primary goal is NOT to make a good product.  Their goal is to provide a profitable company to their shareholders.  The 2 may overlap in some regards, but do not in all.  Someone at AutoDesk probably has an Epiphany a few years ago.  They likely could see that some of their products were becoming harder and harder to innovate and becoming fully mature or would be in the near future.  Naturally, sales will fall when that happens as the product does everything or mostly everything that is needed.  Not currently the case with Eagle.  But when a product reaches that life stage what do you do to maintain it's profitability...  Subscriptions are the answer.  You can now continue to charge indefinitely for a mature product.  This only works if you are the dominate player in the market or the other key competitors adopt the same business model.  Assuming there is a relatively constant need for a product, you now have a constant revenue stream which requires minimal continues development.  The financial bottom line can be expanded by raising the prices of the subscription and re-tasking the development resources on other product (new or less mature products, like Eagle).  It's a GREAT business model if you are on the AutoDesk side.    

I honestly do not expect AutoDesk subscription policy to change in regards to Eagle or their other products.  I honestly wish and hope it would, but I've already started evaluating alternatives for all of my AutoDesk products.  Why? As I and others have stated, the new model requires us to relinquish too much control to AutoDesk.

I also understand that for some companies the Desktop Subscription model is attractive from a tax / accounting standpoint (at least in the US) since the entire cost of the license can be expensed in the year of purchase vs depreciated over a period of years.  For larger organizations that can be significant positive.  For smaller organization, there are other concerns that may out way that positive.  Eagle seems like an oddball to me in this regard when compared to other Autodesk products.  By that I mean, it seems that the majority of the Eagle users would fall into the small business / hobbyist group while the other AutoDesk products probably have a greater number of large corporation type users.

I know that you and the other AutoDesk support personnel are probably getting tired of our complaints.  But complaining and refusing to upgrade are the only avenues for us to let someone know that we are seriously dissatisfied.  Only by all of us voicing our negative views can be hope to equal a larger AutoDesk client who might have a $100,000 dollar account versus our $1000 individual accounts. (disclaimer: those last 2 numbers pulled from thin air).

By the way, is it just me or has the forum traffic far eclipsed the negative reaction from Farnell's license change?

Sincerely,
Royce

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169666 is a reply to message #169664] Thu, 23 February 2017 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ed Robledo
Messages: 48
Registered: August 2005
Member
> Brent Bolton wrote:
> Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come.
> Brent
Hi Brent,
I don't think that is what they are saying, its more of adapting a business model that is successfully is working. A model that allows users to begin designing at reasonable price point, then the user can control their entitlement during idle times but still have full access to view and export.  There was no intention to disrespect our long time users, it was a matter of what can be done to satisfy the large flow of requested features and tools without raising the price. 
Best Regards,
Ed
EAGLE Forum (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500)

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169668 is a reply to message #169666] Thu, 23 February 2017 20:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
geralds
Messages: 198
Registered: February 2014
Senior Member
Hi Ed,

please read page 13,  to 17 in this forum...
not the price is the problem...
Then i suggested 4 points:
https://www.element14.com/community/message/216243/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing# 216243 (/message/216243/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216243)
https://www.element14.com/community/message/216304/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing# 216304 (/message/216304/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216304)

Best Regards,
Gerald
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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169671 is a reply to message #169666] Thu, 23 February 2017 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Hi Ed,

I don't think you're really paying attention to what's being said here. Adopting a business model that successfully works for you but not your users is pointless. There are many other business models that would let you pour more resources into development while not shafting your user base. For instance, the unbundling model where you charge basically the same price for a version that has essentially the v7.x features, and then premiums over that for versions with more advanced features. Further, it's not really about the price. You have competitors that offer perpetual licenses at certain price points. That will force you to always charge a "reasonable" price set by the market. So I'm not worried about that. What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks.

Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169672 is a reply to message #169671] Thu, 23 February 2017 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Royce Arnold
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
Junior Member
Brent,

100% agree.

I'm in a similar situation as you.  Existing design that have to be maintained for years.  In fact, I have a couple of old OrCAD designs (10+ years old) that I still have to maintain on an infrequent basis (maybe once every year or two).  I have an ancient copy of OrCAD sitting in a Windows 2000 VM just to manage those designs.  Operating right next it is the software development package that can no longer be activated because the company is no longer around (well they are but have changed hands and no longer offer any support).  I'm only still able to use the later because I got it into a VM while I could still get it activated.  Both packages are dead for me as far as new designs are concerned, but still have value to support the existing design.  If they were under the new AutoDesk subscription model, I would have to pay access either.


Royce

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169674 is a reply to message #169672] Thu, 23 February 2017 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Thanks Royce,

I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity.

Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169675 is a reply to message #169674] Thu, 23 February 2017 22:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan Cumps
Messages: 8
Registered: November 2016
Junior Member
> Brent Bolton wrote:
>
> Thanks Royce,
>
> I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity.
>
> Brent
You will have listened to the customers to give them the product they needed. I bet you didn't let them dictate your pricing policy.

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169676 is a reply to message #169664] Thu, 23 February 2017 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Kirkby
Messages: 14
Registered: January 2017
Junior Member
> Brent Bolton wrote:
>
> Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come.
>
> Brent
Ultimately any companies main aim is to make money, so attempting to maximise the revenue is to be expected. Companies will not make money unless they have a product or service to sell. Generally speaking, software costs money to develop. Even KiCad, despite being open-source, is not developed for free. There are a number of paid developers, with CERN putting in a lot of money, but one can donate too.

https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6& ;gclid=CjwKEAiArbrFBRDL4Oiz97GP2nISJAAmJMFaR4C71dl9C_ ( https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6& ;gclid=CjwKEAiArbrFBRDL4Oiz97GP2nISJAAmJMFaR4C71dl9C_rceWlkwO1EqbUmLnddo5FW X0Ok6rwPgxoCZlbw_wcB)

(I'm a bit skeptical of donating my companies money. I think that might give me tax issues here in the UK. I guess it would have to be a personal donation).

Based on that, to donate a days KiCad developer time, you need to donate 480 Swiss Francs CHF), which given the exchange rate is almost 1 USD = 1 CHF, it is $480 USD. Sure there will be some developers who are unpaid, but given all the comments about KiCad improving dramatically since CERN started putting money into it, one can probably conclude that the software improved because of the paid developers.

Ultimately, if you don't like a license model, then walk away. There are plenty of options. Someone I know finds Sprint very good, and worth the $50 or so. He prefers it to KiCad.

As for Rachel's comments about Autodesk having multiple servers, so even earthquakes will not cause problems checking out a license, I think there are more serious risks than earthquakes.

* As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300 years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to Autodesk.
* Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product.
* All many of other reasons.



Dave

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169677 is a reply to message #169676] Thu, 23 February 2017 23:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Doug Wellington
Messages: 270
Registered: January 2010
Senior Member
David Kirkby wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 15:52
* As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300 years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to Autodesk.
* Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product.

One of the nice things about the EAGLE file format (since version 6 at least) is that it is easy to read. I've already written a program that opens an EAGLE file, reads it and can parse the XML. (I even posted a couple of my early experiments here.) If anything happens to EAGLE or Autodesk, we'll still be able to access our EAGLE files, if only to convert them to some other package.
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169678 is a reply to message #169616] Fri, 24 February 2017 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Neon John
Messages: 15
Registered: October 2016
Junior Member
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:29:12 +0100, Markus Rudolf
<markus.rudolf@mpic.de> wrote:


> Ah wait.... Democracy has issues in the US recently...

Can't let this one slip by. Since the US is a represenative republic
and (thank God) NOT a democracy, your attempt at sarcasm only shows
your ignorance of our system of government. A democracy is 4 wolves
and a sheep voting on what's for supper.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address
Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169679 is a reply to message #169675] Fri, 24 February 2017 00:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brent Bolton
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2017
Junior Member
Jan,

No the customers didn't dictate our pricing. In the semiconductor industry price constantly declines while capability increases. And no company will shut down your chip after 3 years if you didn't keep paying up. And little of our business was due to product wearing out. It was almost all voluntary upgrades or new purchases because we constantly improved our value proposition.

This will be my last post beating the dead Autodesk horse. I've got to go do some design work with v7.5 and think about who my next CAD vendor will be. Nice debating you all and best wishes to you whatever you decide.

Brent

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Re: Eagle v8 licensing... [message #169683 is a reply to message #169644] Fri, 24 February 2017 04:11 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
mcb1
Messages: 19
Registered: March 2014
Junior Member
> Are you a pensioner? A lady or man?
I think you should change and keep him happy.

What sort of question is that ...?

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